Why are there two g's in "suggest"?

[conuly]

Logically speaking, shouldn't that spelling result in the pronunciation "sug jest" instead of "suh jest"? What the heck is that extra g doing there? Twiddling its thumbs? Picking its nose? Doing the hula? Plotting world domination via illogical orthography?

Interestingly, etymonline.com says that it's from the past participle of "suggerere", which looks like somebody hiccuped while typing. Or speaking, the Romans not having keyboards.

Edit: I now have three comments going "But I do say it that way". For two of you, please confirm: That's sug jest, with the g as in girl?

I've never, ever, ever heard it that way, but assuming that this pronunciation didn't spring up because of the spelling (which is why Brits now say the H in "herb") it all makes sense now!

Merriam-Webster includes that pronunciation, but the OED doesn't.

Comments

[redbird]

Trying to teach etymology, a style of spelling that apparently seemed like a good idea at the time, and also gives us (for example) the b in "dumb."

[conuly]

God, I wish people would actually teach etymology if they keep on insisting on using that argument.

But nothing, and I mean nothing, bothers me so much as the s in island. The b in dumb at least has precedent in lamb and climb, where we can just say "mb at the end of a word means m", but the s in island is completely unpredictable and also isn't even based on real etymology to begin with!

/rantrantyrantrant

[steorra]

Well, I do pronounce it [səgdʒɛst]...
(Do you know the IPA?)

[conuly]

Yes, but I can't type it.

[codeman38]

That's how I pronounce it, too.

[crystalpyramid]

I'm pretty sure I say "suh jest", but "sug jest" sounds totally fine to my ear.

If there were only one g, wouldn't English spelling rules have it pronounced as "soo jest"? Like supine vs. support, sumac vs summation, etc. The doubled consonant lets you have a short vowel.

When I took Latin in high school, they told me the Romans only had a hard "g", not the "j" one. So it wasn't an issue for them, assuming I was taught correctly.

[pne]

wouldn't English spelling rules have it pronounced as "soo jest"?

Or "syoo jest", for those of us who don't drop their yods after coronals. Yes, I think so.

It would rhyme with "hugest", I'd say.

[conuly]

If there were only one g, wouldn't English spelling rules have it pronounced as "soo jest"? Like supine vs. support, sumac vs summation, etc. The doubled consonant lets you have a short vowel.

Well, this is one of the more consistent rules about English spelling, I guess. But it's still one that goes out the window on many occasions, frequently with unstressed syllables - look at traveled. One l, but a "short" e.

[kerrypolka]

Edit: I now have three comments going "But I do say it that way". For two of you, please confirm: That's sug jest, with the g as in girl?

I say it this way!

[kyrielle]

I also say "sug jest" - raised in Oregon, for what it's worth, and that's how I've almost always heard people say it.

[adrian_turtle]

As an adult, I've heard enough people pronouncing it "suh-jest" that I no longer consider it actually WRONG. Not like "li-berry." But I grew up in Michigan, where *everybody* pronounced it "sug-jest." I'm not sure if Bostonians pronounce the first g less strongly than midwesterners, or if the place I live now just has a lot of New Yorkers mixed in.

[trialia]

psst... that's because it isn't wrong, just British!

[siderea]

I pronounce it "sugjest". Raised in coastal New Hampshire, now a Bostonian..

I just threw on Susan Werner's "May I Suggest" to check, and she sings "sugjest". Iowan.

[siderea]

BTW, the ancient Romans did indeed lack the "j", ("sugg-ger-RAIR-reh"). But in most(?) intervening medieval Latins there was a "g or c before an i or e becomes soft" rule, so "suhj-jer-RAIR-eh". Note, my impression is that while "sugg-jer-RAIR-eh", makes logical sense, that's not right because the rule would have applied to both gs.

[conuly]

Once we get into medieval Latin my brain turns off and I skip class.

Indeed, that's exactly what I did when I took it in college, in that order... but add a few stress-related (I think...? I never was sure what was up with that) nosebleeds into the mix.

[trialia]

Also, OED doesn't list that pronunciation simply because we (Brits) don't use it. I've never in my life heard anyone pronounce the word with a hard G...

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

I say "sug jest" and so do most of the people around here...

[beezelbubbles.livejournal.com]

Same here. I'm not sure I've ever heard suh-jest.

[catsidhe.livejournal.com]

suggerere < sub + gerere = "under + support, bear up".

[bg] -> [gg] from assimilation.

Later on, palatalization (the same process which produced the soft G in "genius" and "generic") turned the second [g] into /dʒ/, and brought the first [g] along by a further step of assimilation. And that's the pronunciation which stuck.

/sub gere:re/ -> /sug-gerere/ -> /sug-dʒerere/ -> /sudʒ-erere/.

The "-erere" ending looks repetetetetive, but it's the perfectly regular infinitive "to suggest", where it declines as "suggero" (I suggest), "suggeris" (you suggest), "suggerebant" (they suggested), &c.

[conuly]

Thank you. Somebody who says it the right way (that being, of course, the way I say it)!

[lizziey.livejournal.com]

I pronounce that g, but I say it more of "sig-jest" than "sug-jest".

[conuly]

Are you SURE you do? Have you ALWAYS done this? WHY WASN'T I AWARE???

(Then again, you're like some sort of accent sponge. So really....)

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Nearly all of us say sug jest. Only Andy (who has a mild Irish accent) says suh jest.

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

I pronounce it "suh-jest".

The doubled g is pretty obviously because of the word it was derived from (suggero), as someone says below: well, above after this gets posted.

The effect of a doubled consonant in English tends to be to change the vowels around it rather than to be pronounced twice itself. Pre-breakfast and pre-coffee, I can't think of examples off-hand, but someone with a better formal language education may be able to expand on that. I think the previous vowel gets shortened, where that's possible.

How would you pronounce "suge", if such a word existed? "Sooj", I think, for me. But "sugge" is "suh-je".

[conuly]

The effect of a doubled consonant in English tends to be to change the vowels around it rather than to be pronounced twice itself.

Except where the consonant has two different possible sounds, as in success, where the first c makes its "hard" sound and the second makes its "soft" sound.

I think the previous vowel gets shortened, where that's possible.

Given our orthography, it's more often that a "short" vowel (they're not really short vowels, English no longer distinguishes vowel length, the term is an inaccurate historical artifact) causes a consonant to be doubled rather than that a double consonant causes us to use the short vowel. Compare run and running, sin and sinned.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, I pronounce it "sud-jest".
Of course, one might say that the two gs are pronounced in a way - in that the preceding vowel is short, not long. (Although I'm sure there's some dialect that has "soo-jest"...)

catsidhe has already explained the etymology, so I don't have to do that. ^^

[pne.livejournal.com]

Of course, one might say that the two gs are pronounced in a way - in that the preceding vowel is short, not long.

Good point!

So it's a doubled palatalised g, as it were :)

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Sug-jest, 'g as in girl'. I think 'suh-jest' is probably a New Yorkism; don't recall hearing it anywhere else.

[redbird]

I think I'm going to throw this at my reading/friends list. I'm a New Yorker, so my "of course it's pronounced that way" may just support your suggestion, but I have people reading from various parts of the U.S., plus New Zealand, Canada, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, England, and I think Australia.

[karalianne.livejournal.com]

I say it sug-jest, though I can totally see why the other way makes sense. I think if the "u" was hard (oo) then I would be more likely to say it the way you do, because I read "suggere" etc. that way. Maybe partly because of the way the "e" is pronounced in "suggere" (I guess it would be "soo-jayr" but I don't know how to do proper phonetic representations, so that's the closest I can get it based on how I hear it in my head).

[ser-kai.livejournal.com]

They say suh-jest in Australia.