It is amazing how angry people get

[conuly]

when all you say is "Listen, it's not true that you can't know how to pronounce an unfamiliar word by looking at it, there are rules that will work with a high degree of accuracy".

And every time, sooner or later somebody or other will condescend to tell me that if I'd only phrased it better, they would've listened to what I was saying. It's not the message, it's the way I said that that caused these people to think I was calling them stupid.

None of those people will ever give me the magically better words they think will remedy this problem, though I do ask every single time people suggest it to me, and honestly, I don't think there are any. I think the problem is that people don't want to hear the message at all. If you say "You ought to have been taught these rules in childhood" then they feel ashamed for not knowing something basic and obvious, and even if you don't say it but just mention that rules exist they feel stupid, and then either way they blame you for making them feel bad.

And since that's the case, I don't really see the need to trouble myself too much over my phrasing. Actually, bizarre as it is, I've found that trying harder to be bland and conciliatory is likely to make the situation worse.

But I may as well open it up to other people. Do you have the magic words?

(Note: I don't have any spelling or reading curriculum that are designed for self-study by adult learners who can already read and write pretty well but who struggle with spelling or sounding out unfamiliar words and claim to believe there is no method other than to guess or else memorize each word as an arbitrary collection of letters, which is most of the people I encounter in this situation because, of course, we're all posting online. However, if you're working with somebody to remediate spelling on a budget, I can recommend starting, if they have no signs of ADHD or dyslexia, with Spalding - making the modifications here - and/or Apples and Pears if they do, and then, if they still need help, moving on to Megawords. Those are highly scripted and, importantly - easy to buy on the cheap. I really don't love Spalding, I found it way too front-loaded for ADHD, plus Wanda Spalding had a lot of little personal peeves she built in if you don't use the modifications I suggested, but it's hands-down the cheapest Orton-Gillingham program you'll find for teaching reading and spelling together. Apples and Pears has an associated reading curriculum that probably also is good, but E only needed help in spelling, so I don't know.)

Comments

[kyrielle]

Honestly I'd say it almost the way you did, but with one change: "It's true that you can't know how to pronounce an unfamiliar word with 100% certainty by looking at it, but there are rules that will work with a high degree of accuracy."

Because English is weird, there's always one exception, and if you validate their assumption then they can at least tell themselves that maybe the ones they found hard in the past are that rare exception?

Probably they'll still get annoyed, tho.

[conuly]

I’ll try it next time it comes up and then report back if it was a success.

[lilysea]

and then there's when you know how something should be said, but your mouth just doesn't work that way

there are a whole bunch of words I say wrong, not because I don't know the correct pronunciation

but because speech is tongue muscles and mouth muscles and they just don't wanna make certain sounds.

dachshund is one, there are several others.

[conuly]

Yeah, but that’s a different issue, and you’re unlikely to immediately fly into a rage over it.

[lilysea]

Yeah, but that’s a different issue, and you’re unlikely to immediately fly into a rage over it

true to both

I get a bit annoyed if someone keeps correcting me after I've told them that my mouth can't ever say the word the right way

but annoyed, not angry

(I also get a bit annoyed when people correct me about a word that I usually say correctly, but that I have just said wrong because my mouth muscles/tongue muscles are having a tired/clumsy day, but again, not angry, just annoyed)

I do wish there was a neat and tidy way to say "I know how to say XYZ correctly, but my tongue muscles are not co-operating today"

[low_delta]

Good webpage, thanks.

I think the problem is that people don't understand the rules because there are so many. This guide illustrates how many rules you have to work your way down through to get to the part you need.

I'm pretty good at pronouncing American English words correctly. What always trips me up are names, because so many of them come directly from other languages. Like, the initial kn is always the n sound, but if it's a name, you (almost?) always pronounce the k. When I was young, and heard the name Knut, I thought it was spelled Canute. And don't get me started on Greek. I'm glad I never said Hermione out loud, because I thought it was her-mee-oan.

[conuly]

The thing is, and I’m dead serious, it is entirely possible to teach kids to sound out words to this degree of fluency within three months if you push, or a single school year if you’re working at a standard pace.

And not just one on one or with smart or motivated kids.

It looks like a lot, but it’s not that hard - and it’s faster than letting them think they need to memorize every word by sight first.

[sonia]

Cool web page! I wonder if people feel like you're denying their reality. That is certainly a quick way to piss me off. If I say, "I can't X," and someone says, "Yes, you can," a) they mean "Yes *I* can," and b) there might be reasons I can't even if they can, since we're different people.

So my suggestion is something like, "Yes, English is really frustrating. Some native speakers internalize a set of complex rules that get them 85% of the way there, but if you haven't had a chance to do that, it's really hard to know how to pronounce an unfamiliar word."

[the_siobhan]

My very broad experience is that people who legitimately can't do a thing will be very patient and gracious about explaining that they can't do the thing.[1] Whereas people who can do a thing but can't be arsed to learn how will get pissy at you about it.

[1] This rule goes away if you argue with them and so it should.

[smokingboot]

Correcting people is difficult, not least because shamed people get defensive and then suddenly no-one is learning a damn thing. I would probably change the statement to 'Yes, almost always you can learn how to pronounce an unfamiliar word by looking at it, there are rules that will work with a high degree of accuracy. Not in every single situation, but for most. Try them and let me know what you think!' Having said that, there's nothing you can do about people who just donwanna.

[gingicat]

To a native speaker, instead of saying "you should have learned this in school" you could say "this used to be taught in school." I can tell you that it was part of Michigan and California and NYC school curriculum in the 1970s and 1980s, but not in Massachusetts in the 2010s.

[conuly]

The trouble is that if you say that, three more people will pop up to assert that no it wasn’t, because ugh, they personally weren’t.