*sighs*

[conuly]

So, somebody over at customers_suck is trying to tell me that no Jewish person would ever use the word babushka to mean anything other than their dear granny, and certainly not that headcovering often worn by dear grannies. I'm very kindly not pointing out that babushka is a Russian word, and that therefore it's very likely that Jews from other parts of the world (yes, they still exist) would never have even heard the word with its original meaning, but this still leaves the nagging question - for people (not just Jews!) of Eastern European descent, is that true? Who speak English, that is.

I've now said the word Jew more often in this one day than I usually do in a year. I'd say oy vey, but that's really taking this "I know random Yiddish phrases!" thing too far.

Oh, and of course, I apparently know nothing of Judaism or Jewish people. I guess that going to two very heavily Jewish schools (Stuy and Brooklyn College) in a traditionally very Jewish city means I must've been walking around with my eyes closed my whole life, instead of my nose in any book I could find (many of which, strangely enough, involved Jewish people. Jewish like Jewish, not Jewish like my Cousin Frances whom I don't like and don't think is really Jewish anyway, not that I'd tell her that)

Edit: And in other news, we all resolved our differences, and are nice and social and happy. And I got two imaginary cookies out of the deal!

Comments

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

*jumps in* (http://www.livejournal.com/community/customers_suck/9737413.html?thread=105574341#t105574341)

[conuly]

*nods*

I think the problem is that we're having a conversation between three different people who speak at least three different languages primarily. My primary language is English, one of the commentors is Russian-speaking, another is probably Hebrew speaking, judging from her "Hebrew slang term" comment.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

*nods* Just the "No Jewish woman would *ever* provokes the "well *hey* now..." response from me. :)

[conuly]

Yeah, really. It's not even okay if that's edited to be "No Eastern European Jewish woman."

I mean, hello? Sephardic Judaism? Ethiopian Jews? Converts?

[conuly]

Hm. Or is Sephardic the Eastern European one? I can never keep the names straight.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

No, you got it right. Sephardic is Middle Eastern. Eastern European is Ashkenazic.

[conuly]

Danke.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I love that distinction, because a few generations back the intermarriage of Ashkenazic Jews with Sephardic ones was a bit scandalous. It happened in my ancestry, but not everyone approved. It was a bit controversial. Whereas in my generation some of my siblings married Christians and no one minds.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I also commented as a Jewish (ex-Jewish really, but enh, close enough) woman (well, female, not really sure what makes one a woman) who thinks of a babushka as a piece of clothing.

I get confused about which words have which descent though as my father's parents were Polish and spoke Yiddish and Hebrew, while I have Russian roots from both sides of the family that certainly may have penetrated linguistically, whereas my mother's side of the family is a cross between Russian and Spanish descent and spoke some Ladino - the bastardized Spanish of the Jewish people as Yiddish is the bastardized German. I, of course, only picked up a few words here or there, and can't keep track of their roots, although most of it seems to be Yiddish.

The word I seemed to have best learned is "schmutzaka" (vague attempt at spelling in English). Immortalized in my grandmother's use of, "Get those schmutzaka feet out of the kitchen!" It means filthy or disgusting or some flavor thereof.

I really wish I knew more of non-English languages though.

[conuly]

I know what Ladino is. I've always felt kinda sorry that nobody bothers to teach that like they teach Yiddish still. I mean, I know why, it's because all the Jewish immigrants where I am spoke Yiddish, but... it still saddens me slightly.

[leora.livejournal.com]

One of the things I'm grumpy about is that my mother was raised in an English-Ladino environment (although she didn't pick up much), and my father's first language was Yiddish, but he lost it when he learned English. Whereas I was raised monolingual. I wish I had another language. I feel I should have a birthright on at least one more language. And, of course, I was supposed to learn Hebrew, but I wasn't sent to Yeshiva, and I only picked up a little from Hebrew School. So, here I sit, monolingual.

Every so often I make a half-hearted attempt to learn some German. It'd be so useful to me, and if I knew Yiddish, German would be a lot easier. Or vice versa.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

My first husband was Jewish - I was even married by a (Reform) rabbi. Not that it means all that much, just throwing out some trivia. Oooh, and I kept Kosher for a while because of a roomie, and lived on Ocean Pkwy, was the Shabbos Goy for the building. :P

I've always known schmata to be rag(even if on the head) and babushka to be a head scarf or grandmother.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I've always disliked the concept of a Shabbos Goy... it always struck me as kind of condescending. I know that it was a consensual thing. And often a paid position that was probably pretty easy... yet, it still feels wrong to me.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Never bothered me, it was just as a favor to neighbors -- like in the summer when it would get too cold and the AC was blasting (or vice versa) or once a light blew out and it needed changing, things like that.

I'd do it for anyone else, for any circumstances.

Only one person 'paid' me, she'd hurriedly grab something from the kitchen because she was supposed to pay, according to her customs. Another one, no, but she had different customs, too.

Supposedly my grandmother was a REAL Shabbos goy, it was an actual side job for her many years ago. Me? Cute nickname I picked up as a semi-regular helper to my neighbors.

I don't see why it's condescending, though. I don't mean that as a nitpick or anything, just don't see what aspect of it is. I know that "Shabbos Goy" is considered an insult to many -- the words, not the actual act. One neighbor said it was a mitzvah, a good deed I was doing.

[leora.livejournal.com]

There's nothing really wrong with it... it just makes me uncomfortable. Something about the idea that it's the second holiest of holidays there is and a day of rest. That you're supposed to rest and be religious, but it's fine to pay someone else to work and get around the inconveniences of the holiday. It's not necessarily bad... and actually, I feel that the current take on the Sabbath is wrong. It's supposed to be a day of rest and study, but I don't think that means you shouldn't be able to flip a light switch or adjust the AC, as I feel that would facilitate rest and study. But whatever. I just feel like it so clearly marks the Shabbos Goy as Other. You're not one of us. You don't need to be part of this. We can pay you because you're a heathen and it doesn't matter if you observe the Sabbath.

I'm sure in reality it would be much more a matter of how it is done and would vary quite a lot from place to place. And I haven't actually been around people that do that. I just think it has the potential to easily turn icky.

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

Technically, at least in Russian, babushka only means grandmother. I don't know Yiddish though.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

*jumps in* (http://www.livejournal.com/community/customers_suck/9737413.html?thread=105574341#t105574341)

[conuly]

*nods*

I think the problem is that we're having a conversation between three different people who speak at least three different languages primarily. My primary language is English, one of the commentors is Russian-speaking, another is probably Hebrew speaking, judging from her "Hebrew slang term" comment.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

*nods* Just the "No Jewish woman would *ever* provokes the "well *hey* now..." response from me. :)

[conuly]

Yeah, really. It's not even okay if that's edited to be "No Eastern European Jewish woman."

I mean, hello? Sephardic Judaism? Ethiopian Jews? Converts?

[conuly]

Hm. Or is Sephardic the Eastern European one? I can never keep the names straight.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

No, you got it right. Sephardic is Middle Eastern. Eastern European is Ashkenazic.

[conuly]

Danke.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I love that distinction, because a few generations back the intermarriage of Ashkenazic Jews with Sephardic ones was a bit scandalous. It happened in my ancestry, but not everyone approved. It was a bit controversial. Whereas in my generation some of my siblings married Christians and no one minds.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I also commented as a Jewish (ex-Jewish really, but enh, close enough) woman (well, female, not really sure what makes one a woman) who thinks of a babushka as a piece of clothing.

I get confused about which words have which descent though as my father's parents were Polish and spoke Yiddish and Hebrew, while I have Russian roots from both sides of the family that certainly may have penetrated linguistically, whereas my mother's side of the family is a cross between Russian and Spanish descent and spoke some Ladino - the bastardized Spanish of the Jewish people as Yiddish is the bastardized German. I, of course, only picked up a few words here or there, and can't keep track of their roots, although most of it seems to be Yiddish.

The word I seemed to have best learned is "schmutzaka" (vague attempt at spelling in English). Immortalized in my grandmother's use of, "Get those schmutzaka feet out of the kitchen!" It means filthy or disgusting or some flavor thereof.

I really wish I knew more of non-English languages though.

[conuly]

I know what Ladino is. I've always felt kinda sorry that nobody bothers to teach that like they teach Yiddish still. I mean, I know why, it's because all the Jewish immigrants where I am spoke Yiddish, but... it still saddens me slightly.

[leora.livejournal.com]

One of the things I'm grumpy about is that my mother was raised in an English-Ladino environment (although she didn't pick up much), and my father's first language was Yiddish, but he lost it when he learned English. Whereas I was raised monolingual. I wish I had another language. I feel I should have a birthright on at least one more language. And, of course, I was supposed to learn Hebrew, but I wasn't sent to Yeshiva, and I only picked up a little from Hebrew School. So, here I sit, monolingual.

Every so often I make a half-hearted attempt to learn some German. It'd be so useful to me, and if I knew Yiddish, German would be a lot easier. Or vice versa.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

My first husband was Jewish - I was even married by a (Reform) rabbi. Not that it means all that much, just throwing out some trivia. Oooh, and I kept Kosher for a while because of a roomie, and lived on Ocean Pkwy, was the Shabbos Goy for the building. :P

I've always known schmata to be rag(even if on the head) and babushka to be a head scarf or grandmother.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I've always disliked the concept of a Shabbos Goy... it always struck me as kind of condescending. I know that it was a consensual thing. And often a paid position that was probably pretty easy... yet, it still feels wrong to me.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Never bothered me, it was just as a favor to neighbors -- like in the summer when it would get too cold and the AC was blasting (or vice versa) or once a light blew out and it needed changing, things like that.

I'd do it for anyone else, for any circumstances.

Only one person 'paid' me, she'd hurriedly grab something from the kitchen because she was supposed to pay, according to her customs. Another one, no, but she had different customs, too.

Supposedly my grandmother was a REAL Shabbos goy, it was an actual side job for her many years ago. Me? Cute nickname I picked up as a semi-regular helper to my neighbors.

I don't see why it's condescending, though. I don't mean that as a nitpick or anything, just don't see what aspect of it is. I know that "Shabbos Goy" is considered an insult to many -- the words, not the actual act. One neighbor said it was a mitzvah, a good deed I was doing.

[leora.livejournal.com]

There's nothing really wrong with it... it just makes me uncomfortable. Something about the idea that it's the second holiest of holidays there is and a day of rest. That you're supposed to rest and be religious, but it's fine to pay someone else to work and get around the inconveniences of the holiday. It's not necessarily bad... and actually, I feel that the current take on the Sabbath is wrong. It's supposed to be a day of rest and study, but I don't think that means you shouldn't be able to flip a light switch or adjust the AC, as I feel that would facilitate rest and study. But whatever. I just feel like it so clearly marks the Shabbos Goy as Other. You're not one of us. You don't need to be part of this. We can pay you because you're a heathen and it doesn't matter if you observe the Sabbath.

I'm sure in reality it would be much more a matter of how it is done and would vary quite a lot from place to place. And I haven't actually been around people that do that. I just think it has the potential to easily turn icky.

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

Technically, at least in Russian, babushka only means grandmother. I don't know Yiddish though.

[athanata.livejournal.com]

feh. i knew reading that would make me mad. you were OF COURSE correct - a schmatte is just like - a rag, a crappy piece of clothing. a babushka is a head scarf...

sorry you have to deal with lame people!

[athanata.livejournal.com]

feh. i knew reading that would make me mad. you were OF COURSE correct - a schmatte is just like - a rag, a crappy piece of clothing. a babushka is a head scarf...

sorry you have to deal with lame people!