HELP!

[conuly]

I have this project due tomorrow. I had been planning to do a tape of people speaking and come up with results (it's for sociolinguistics) but the tape is impossible to hear for most of it. So I'm doing the OTHER project, which I had originally decided not to do because I didn't have enough people. Basically, I'm going to get a few results and extrapolate from them, instead of doing what I was supposed to do which is give the survey to two groups of 10 people each, which are alike in all respects except one. PLEASE help!

[Poll #360503]

Edit: Unless this affected your answers, don't worry about it. Just a clarification: AAVE is *not* supposed to be taken to mean slang. I lost the explanation we were supposed to give, which is just as well as I really thought that explanation was biased towards AAVE anyway. I mean, so am I, but that didn't seem fair. Anyway, AAVE is supposed to be considered as a dialect such as RP english or Brooklyn english, not as slang.

Non-americans, unless you know a lot about the subject (or think you can guess based on your knowledge of nonprestigious dialects where you are), don't answer. I'm locking this so that I can't be called out for rushing the assignment.

Comments

[ser-kai.livejournal.com]

I wish I could help!

[conuly]

You can, by answering the poll!

[frogmajick.livejournal.com]

How timely. We are doing pegagogies for teaching composition 101 to dialectic speakers (pretty much everyone who doesn't use academic discourse yet, in my opinion.)(And yes, even me)

[frogmajick.livejournal.com]

or pedagogies even, if I could type properly.

[ladyshrew.livejournal.com]

I have lots of issues with proper English grammar disappearing in all cases, not just certain dialects anyway. And I reeeeally can't see different dialects being advantageous in the same way that bilingualism is, considering the advantages of bilingualism differ depending on the language in question anyway. In order for bilingualism to advantageous to mental growth, you need a language that is more different than just dialect. Even on the SATs, for example, Spanish isn't as advantageous as Latin is. Part of that is the more complex grammatical structure.

Cultural dialects are great at home and arguably, even artisticly, but I have way too many issues with people - and I mean everyone, no emphasis on AAVE at all - being ignorant about the complexities of grammar. Proper grammar can be so beautiful and expressive, and people forget that these days. What's more, incorrect grammar loses its expressive abilities if it becomes the standard.

And now I'm going to shuddup before this rant gets any longer. :-P

[conuly]

Proper grammar can be so beautiful and expressive, and people forget that these days. What's more, incorrect grammar loses its expressive abilities if it becomes the standard.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

[ladytalon.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to say that I love the way you said all that, and I agree with you so much. Especially:

Proper grammar can be so beautiful and expressive, and people forget that these days.

That's the part that's dearest to my heart. I love the language.

[zarriq.livejournal.com]

incorrect grammar loses its expressive abilities if it becomes the standard.


Once "incorrect" grammar becomes the standard, then it's correct. In some ways, the grammar you use is a watered-down, bastardized version of its original form, altered by interaction with Vikings. Unless you regularly use declensions on your adjectives and nouns and write in Futhorc.

[deathchibi.livejournal.com]

We learned about this in Intro to Cultural Anthropology!

I voted on the poll, and I think AAVE is more of a creole/pigin(sic.) language more than a dialect, you know? It's not just localized to certain African-American groups, but that's just me.

I figure it might be worth a shot to use it in education. If you can't understand the language you're being taught in, how will you learn? And at this point in time, plenty of kids could use the help, I think.

On the flip side, most people tend to equate AAVE as poor english, so it might hurt them later on... Bleah, sorry, stuck in programming mode.

[conuly]

I voted on the poll, and I think AAVE is more of a creole/pigin(sic.) language more than a dialect, you know?

I disagree, simply because I know a bit about creoles and pidgins (which are NOT the same thing at all!). I can actually provide some examples of english-based creoles to show you what I mean... but probably not right now.

[griphus.livejournal.com]

could I just suggest locking off the poll results? for the sake of experiment and to protect privacy of opinion :D

[conuly]

I hadn't considered it, and it's too late now anyway. Polls can't be changed after they've been voted on, not in any way. However, if you're concerned about your own privacy, you can not vote and instead put your answers in a friend-locked post in your journal, or as a reply here which I'll screen as soon as you post it.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

It's a little silly what I'm going to say in light of what's already been said: what I'm going to attempt to say will probably not adequately represent exactly what I mean.

I find that many language variances have their "proper" places and cultures, but that does not mean it is advantageous overall to use them. The further one strays from the core language, the further they stray from being clearly understood by others in their society. Their more "local" culture may be able to understand it, but others will not and may even look down on them for doing so. That said, I believe it is very important for people to understand standard rules (grammar, spelling, pronunciation, and usage) of the language that is central to their surrounding culture.

There are "typed languages" and coded languages that have appeared largely due to technology, shortcuts, and the need or desire to be understood by only a small percentile of people. When it spreads out, it becomes more widely accepted but not necessarily "correct." The main downfall to this is that people become so accustomed to the "wrong" way that they literally forget how to use the standard language and make problems for themselves through that. I know of several young people who have used "chtspk" so much that they don't even make an effort to spell words properly or differentiate between "your" and "you're," for example. Among friends who understand and use chtspk, I guess that is fine. I find it hideous to read, and if it's used too much I think it impairs one's ability to type and sometimes even speak more formally.

Wow, that was long. :-/

[conuly]

That actually comes close to my favorite argument for IAL/interlinguas!

Namely that it's better to encourage local dialects/langauges and have everybody learn one, non-national langauge than it is to just stamp out the local forms of speech.

[thornleaf.livejournal.com]

Wow, that was really hard to answer - being trained as both an anthropologist and a teacher, I occasionally found myself at odds with myself!

[conuly]

*laughs*

I had the same problem. I am fully in support of minority languages and dialects - but I also am support of honesty, which forces me to note that use of nonstandard English can hinder your success in the working world. It's not fair, but it's true.

[staircase-wit.livejournal.com]

I'd rather not have my age exagerated. I'm sensitive about it.

You can exagerate my ethnicity, though. I'll be Native American. Here's how it works. The earliest human in North America is "Kennewick Man." The facial reconstructon shows an individual who looks like Patrick Stewart. Patrick Stewart is Celtic.

[conuly]

Nah, you're "old enough" that it doesn't have to be exagerated. I'm not sure if that's going to make you feel better, though.

[deathchibi.livejournal.com]

I'm 18. Of course I don't mind. o_o

[zarriq.livejournal.com]

I thought this bit was a little vague and wish to explain myself: In the long term, continued use of non-standard English will penalize speakers socially and economically.

People who use some non-standard dialect in, say, a formal setting would be penalized. However, I see absolutely nothing wrong with using non-standard English among friends and family.

[conuly]

Yeah, I know. The whole thing had a lot of vagaries, and we weren't supposed to clarify questions for people.

[ser-kai.livejournal.com]

I wish I could help!

[conuly]

You can, by answering the poll!

[frogmajick.livejournal.com]

How timely. We are doing pegagogies for teaching composition 101 to dialectic speakers (pretty much everyone who doesn't use academic discourse yet, in my opinion.)(And yes, even me)

[frogmajick.livejournal.com]

or pedagogies even, if I could type properly.

[ladyshrew.livejournal.com]

I have lots of issues with proper English grammar disappearing in all cases, not just certain dialects anyway. And I reeeeally can't see different dialects being advantageous in the same way that bilingualism is, considering the advantages of bilingualism differ depending on the language in question anyway. In order for bilingualism to advantageous to mental growth, you need a language that is more different than just dialect. Even on the SATs, for example, Spanish isn't as advantageous as Latin is. Part of that is the more complex grammatical structure.

Cultural dialects are great at home and arguably, even artisticly, but I have way too many issues with people - and I mean everyone, no emphasis on AAVE at all - being ignorant about the complexities of grammar. Proper grammar can be so beautiful and expressive, and people forget that these days. What's more, incorrect grammar loses its expressive abilities if it becomes the standard.

And now I'm going to shuddup before this rant gets any longer. :-P

[conuly]

Proper grammar can be so beautiful and expressive, and people forget that these days. What's more, incorrect grammar loses its expressive abilities if it becomes the standard.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

[deathchibi.livejournal.com]

We learned about this in Intro to Cultural Anthropology!

I voted on the poll, and I think AAVE is more of a creole/pigin(sic.) language more than a dialect, you know? It's not just localized to certain African-American groups, but that's just me.

I figure it might be worth a shot to use it in education. If you can't understand the language you're being taught in, how will you learn? And at this point in time, plenty of kids could use the help, I think.

On the flip side, most people tend to equate AAVE as poor english, so it might hurt them later on... Bleah, sorry, stuck in programming mode.

[conuly]

I voted on the poll, and I think AAVE is more of a creole/pigin(sic.) language more than a dialect, you know?

I disagree, simply because I know a bit about creoles and pidgins (which are NOT the same thing at all!). I can actually provide some examples of english-based creoles to show you what I mean... but probably not right now.

[griphus.livejournal.com]

could I just suggest locking off the poll results? for the sake of experiment and to protect privacy of opinion :D

[conuly]

I hadn't considered it, and it's too late now anyway. Polls can't be changed after they've been voted on, not in any way. However, if you're concerned about your own privacy, you can not vote and instead put your answers in a friend-locked post in your journal, or as a reply here which I'll screen as soon as you post it.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

It's a little silly what I'm going to say in light of what's already been said: what I'm going to attempt to say will probably not adequately represent exactly what I mean.

I find that many language variances have their "proper" places and cultures, but that does not mean it is advantageous overall to use them. The further one strays from the core language, the further they stray from being clearly understood by others in their society. Their more "local" culture may be able to understand it, but others will not and may even look down on them for doing so. That said, I believe it is very important for people to understand standard rules (grammar, spelling, pronunciation, and usage) of the language that is central to their surrounding culture.

There are "typed languages" and coded languages that have appeared largely due to technology, shortcuts, and the need or desire to be understood by only a small percentile of people. When it spreads out, it becomes more widely accepted but not necessarily "correct." The main downfall to this is that people become so accustomed to the "wrong" way that they literally forget how to use the standard language and make problems for themselves through that. I know of several young people who have used "chtspk" so much that they don't even make an effort to spell words properly or differentiate between "your" and "you're," for example. Among friends who understand and use chtspk, I guess that is fine. I find it hideous to read, and if it's used too much I think it impairs one's ability to type and sometimes even speak more formally.

Wow, that was long. :-/

[conuly]

That actually comes close to my favorite argument for IAL/interlinguas!

Namely that it's better to encourage local dialects/langauges and have everybody learn one, non-national langauge than it is to just stamp out the local forms of speech.

[thornleaf.livejournal.com]

Wow, that was really hard to answer - being trained as both an anthropologist and a teacher, I occasionally found myself at odds with myself!

[conuly]

*laughs*

I had the same problem. I am fully in support of minority languages and dialects - but I also am support of honesty, which forces me to note that use of nonstandard English can hinder your success in the working world. It's not fair, but it's true.

[staircase-wit.livejournal.com]

I'd rather not have my age exagerated. I'm sensitive about it.

You can exagerate my ethnicity, though. I'll be Native American. Here's how it works. The earliest human in North America is "Kennewick Man." The facial reconstructon shows an individual who looks like Patrick Stewart. Patrick Stewart is Celtic.

[conuly]

Nah, you're "old enough" that it doesn't have to be exagerated. I'm not sure if that's going to make you feel better, though.

[deathchibi.livejournal.com]

I'm 18. Of course I don't mind. o_o

[zarriq.livejournal.com]

I thought this bit was a little vague and wish to explain myself: In the long term, continued use of non-standard English will penalize speakers socially and economically.

People who use some non-standard dialect in, say, a formal setting would be penalized. However, I see absolutely nothing wrong with using non-standard English among friends and family.

[conuly]

Yeah, I know. The whole thing had a lot of vagaries, and we weren't supposed to clarify questions for people.