*bangs her head against the wall*

[conuly]

How do you get through to people?

Okay, let me try. Male parents are fathers. Female parents are mothers. IF you wish to claim that men have no maternal instincts, ever, but women do, please don't use the argument "they couldn't possibly have the same instincts, because men have paternal instincts, and no I can't explain how they're different, there's a whole letter different, you moron!"

That's just confusing.

And when you finally realize that you're being slow, please, the appropriate response is most emphatically NOT "how many kids did you say you had?"

That. Is. Not. Relevant.

Interestingly, this conversation would never have started if the OP hadn't broken a cardinal rule - never say "I don't mean to be prejudiced" or "No offense" or anything even remotely resembling a disclaimer before saying something prejudiced of offensive. If you feel you need to say the former in order to say the latter, don't say it. If you really must say it, please, you're less likely to seem prejudiced or offensive if you just leave the stupid disclaimer out.

Free advice. Take it.

And yes, I know, I'm IN bed, I'm going to sleep now.

Link posted at request of kinda original poster. Do me a favor, tell me when she started using the word "typical", would you?

Comments

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

"How do you get through to people?"

Short answer: you don't. "Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain", remember? What makes you think you've got any chance against it?

I say this because I've seen you perseveratin' like a maniac lately, trying to get people to be logical. Perseveration is a super-power, and like any other super-power, can be used for either Good or Evil. Now, I'm not saying it's BIG Evil to correct other peoples' spelling unasked, or to insist they acknowledge that their opinions haven't got a shred of scientific evidence to back them up... and I'm sure your intention is to be helpful and informative... but it IS "little evil", i.e. tedious and kind of obnoxious.

Also futile, because you're not going to change anyone's mind that way. You could have every fact in the world on your side, and they could have nothing but "Well, my neighbor's sister read it in the Midnight Star", and it wouldn't matter. Unless you ENJOY getting into futile arguments online, there's really no point to doing it.

Now, me, I do enjoy it sometimes - at my other site, there's almost always a fight going on somewhere; if not, it's a moment's work to start one with one or more of the Usual Suspects. I jump in with my +3 Sword of Logic and proceed to lay waste to all contenders - nobody wins, nobody ever convinces anyone else of anything, but presumably everybody has a good time.

If that sounds like your idea of a good time, you may wish to seek out a more belligerent site than Livejournal in which to pick fights - UseNet is hard-core, so I wouldn't advise going there unless you've got extremely thick skin AND professional-grade firewalls, but there's all kinds of flame-friendly places on Yahoo.

If getting in fights with strangers over moot points is not your idea of a good time, then perhaps you need to think seriously about why you've been doing it so often lately.

About the "instinct" thing - no, there is no evidence that the "maternal instinct" exists in humans. Humans do have some instincts (http://www.grandin.com/references/genetics.html) - the startle reflex is one; the tendency for infants to direct their gaze toward a face, or a pattern resembling one, is another - not a lot, though. Most human behavior is learned.

Hatch a baby alligator, and even though she's never seen another alligator in all her days, when she gets big and you let her go in the swamp, she will automatically do all the things alligators do, including what passes for parenting behavior among alligators. Raise a baby monkey without parenting, and it will never be a successful parent, because primates aren't hard-wired the way birds, reptiles, and some mammals are.

Onn a tangential but related note, check out this cool essay by Temple Grandin (http://www.grandin.com/references/genetics.html)

[conuly]

If getting in fights with strangers over moot points is not your idea of a good time, then perhaps you need to think seriously about why you've been doing it so often lately.

I always do. And then I come out of the fog and it's like "what the fuck was that?"

Can I ask a favor? Next time you think I'm headed down the primrose path again, could you come smack me awake? Don't worry if you don't want to/can't/other word. 'salright either way.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Well, sure, hon, if you want, and if I happen to be here when you're doing it. I haven't wanted to say, because for all I knew, you might well be getting in fights as a sort of hobby, same as I sometimes do - LOL, I know it's a dumb hobby, but most hobbies are kinda dumb.

I started getting the impression that it wasn't that with you, though - that when you jump in, you don't really see that doing so is going to get you into a fight, until you're already in one, and then you want out, but it's hard for you to find the way.

I'm wondering if it comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the neurotypical mind (http://home.att.net/~ascaris1/neurotypicality.htm), which tends to put far more value on perceived status in the social hierarchy than on truth, fact, or correctness. Telling people they're wrong, no matter how gently or tactfully, is generally perceived as a challenge to their social status.

This is why you keep getting these irrelevant "counters" about your age, your reproductive history, etcetera. They're irrelevant if the discussion is purely a matter of determining what is true or logical - but it's not. To your opponents, truth and logic are irrelevant; the encounter is about establishing dominance - age and progeny being the classic female primate status-indicators, they are very relevant in that context.

If you view most human behavior as gambits in a huge ongoing game of "Who's Alpha?", you won't be far off the mark. Like it says in that song The Gambler:

"If you're going to play the game, you better learn to play it right,
You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run."

Basically, if it's not amusing you, it's time to walk away. If you're getting upset, it's time to run. No worries that that'll make your opponents believe victory is theirs: it doesn't matter what they believe, because Online Debate is a game nobody can ever really win.

[conuly]

Actually, interestingly, I've made a number of friends after having a stupid fight with them.

I don't understand this.

So I guess it serves a practical purpose after all.