*bangs her head against the wall*

[conuly]

How do you get through to people?

Okay, let me try. Male parents are fathers. Female parents are mothers. IF you wish to claim that men have no maternal instincts, ever, but women do, please don't use the argument "they couldn't possibly have the same instincts, because men have paternal instincts, and no I can't explain how they're different, there's a whole letter different, you moron!"

That's just confusing.

And when you finally realize that you're being slow, please, the appropriate response is most emphatically NOT "how many kids did you say you had?"

That. Is. Not. Relevant.

Interestingly, this conversation would never have started if the OP hadn't broken a cardinal rule - never say "I don't mean to be prejudiced" or "No offense" or anything even remotely resembling a disclaimer before saying something prejudiced of offensive. If you feel you need to say the former in order to say the latter, don't say it. If you really must say it, please, you're less likely to seem prejudiced or offensive if you just leave the stupid disclaimer out.

Free advice. Take it.

And yes, I know, I'm IN bed, I'm going to sleep now.

Link posted at request of kinda original poster. Do me a favor, tell me when she started using the word "typical", would you?

Comments

sigh.

[scottrossi.livejournal.com]

i know what you mean about the whole "i don't mean to be prejudiced." thing. i get it all the time. people are like, "i dont mean to be prejudiced, but i think homosexuality is disgusting." and then on the inside, i cry, on the outside, i have to put on the front that i respect their opinion, when i really want to hack at them with a machete.

Re: sigh.

[conuly]

Seriously. The idea that you need a disclaimer is a BIG WARNING SIGN.

The other day, there was a post in customers_suck:

I don't mean to be racist, but the other day a group of asian teens came in and was rude.

After that sentence, race wasn't mentioned at all. The mention of race was completely superflous. In no world would she say "20 white teens", and all rudeness was better attributed to their being teenagers than their being asian (sorry, duckies), but then she had the nerve to get upset when I suggested she just take the reference to race out if she thought she had to apologise for it.

[toastedtuna.livejournal.com]

I don't mean to be biased, but I hate it when people can't explain their arguments and find the weakest, most lame thing in the world to say, and expect people to accept it as their final answer.

Men can't have maternal instincts because they have paternal instincts? OK. I understand what the person is TRYING to convey. It's stupid, but I get it. It's very weak. There is no difference between paternal and maternal, except that one refers to men and one to women. That's it. That's the ONLY difference.

It's like maternal grandparents & paternal grandparents. One refers to the child's mother's side of the family, and the other refers to the child's father's side of the family.

Someone should bait your OP and see if paternal grandparents never have maternal feelings because they are paternal.

[conuly]

*gigglesnorts*

She's finally calmed down enough to give an example. ONE example. Her and her husband/partner.

Yeah. I already know that different people have different views on parenting, sweetie. Now, please, can you prove that your differences were caused by gender and not something else, say, upbringing?

And I love:

Oh, I can't possibly tell you what paternal instincts are because I'm not a father and can't say what men feel!

If that's the case, then how the hell do you think you know that they don't have the same exact damn "instincts" as mothers!

I dont' believe in parental instinct anyway. And when I do agree it might exist, I think it can be wrong - for example, if you're in a plane and it depressurises, your instinct is to put the mask on your kid first, but the smart thing to do is to put it on yourself first.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

This one reminds me of an idiot that I debate every once in a while in another community. The format is:

*Question?*
*Dodge*
*Question?*
*Dodge*
*Question!
*But I've alreeeady aaanswered thaaaat! Yer stupid and you can't read and you're making stuff up ANYWAY!*

[hopefulnebula]

That is pitiful. Yet somehow engrossing. *keeps reading*

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I am so goddamned FUCKING tired of the smarmy non-response "Oh, you don't have any children? Then you could neeeveeerrr understand. When you give birth to a baby, THEN you'll understand."

Smirk smirk smug sneer *strangle*.

If you have to give birth to understand being a parent/mother, then how the hell do the thousands of adoptive parents (around a hundred thousand annually (http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/FactOverview.html#head))ever manage it? Or are you actually trying to say that adoptive parents are just naturally inferior to birth parents?

If you automatically acquire these "maternal instincts" when you give birth, how come there are children neglected/abused/murdered by their own mothers?

Gahhh.

[conuly]

See, that *might've* made sense for my statement that I don't believe there really are maternal instincts - I don't really believe that humans have instincts at all, at least not in the sense most people use the word.

But that's not what we were discussing on the thread.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

"How do you get through to people?"

Short answer: you don't. "Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain", remember? What makes you think you've got any chance against it?

I say this because I've seen you perseveratin' like a maniac lately, trying to get people to be logical. Perseveration is a super-power, and like any other super-power, can be used for either Good or Evil. Now, I'm not saying it's BIG Evil to correct other peoples' spelling unasked, or to insist they acknowledge that their opinions haven't got a shred of scientific evidence to back them up... and I'm sure your intention is to be helpful and informative... but it IS "little evil", i.e. tedious and kind of obnoxious.

Also futile, because you're not going to change anyone's mind that way. You could have every fact in the world on your side, and they could have nothing but "Well, my neighbor's sister read it in the Midnight Star", and it wouldn't matter. Unless you ENJOY getting into futile arguments online, there's really no point to doing it.

Now, me, I do enjoy it sometimes - at my other site, there's almost always a fight going on somewhere; if not, it's a moment's work to start one with one or more of the Usual Suspects. I jump in with my +3 Sword of Logic and proceed to lay waste to all contenders - nobody wins, nobody ever convinces anyone else of anything, but presumably everybody has a good time.

If that sounds like your idea of a good time, you may wish to seek out a more belligerent site than Livejournal in which to pick fights - UseNet is hard-core, so I wouldn't advise going there unless you've got extremely thick skin AND professional-grade firewalls, but there's all kinds of flame-friendly places on Yahoo.

If getting in fights with strangers over moot points is not your idea of a good time, then perhaps you need to think seriously about why you've been doing it so often lately.

About the "instinct" thing - no, there is no evidence that the "maternal instinct" exists in humans. Humans do have some instincts (http://www.grandin.com/references/genetics.html) - the startle reflex is one; the tendency for infants to direct their gaze toward a face, or a pattern resembling one, is another - not a lot, though. Most human behavior is learned.

Hatch a baby alligator, and even though she's never seen another alligator in all her days, when she gets big and you let her go in the swamp, she will automatically do all the things alligators do, including what passes for parenting behavior among alligators. Raise a baby monkey without parenting, and it will never be a successful parent, because primates aren't hard-wired the way birds, reptiles, and some mammals are.

Onn a tangential but related note, check out this cool essay by Temple Grandin (http://www.grandin.com/references/genetics.html)

[conuly]

If getting in fights with strangers over moot points is not your idea of a good time, then perhaps you need to think seriously about why you've been doing it so often lately.

I always do. And then I come out of the fog and it's like "what the fuck was that?"

Can I ask a favor? Next time you think I'm headed down the primrose path again, could you come smack me awake? Don't worry if you don't want to/can't/other word. 'salright either way.

[conuly]

Actually, interestingly, I've made a number of friends after having a stupid fight with them.

I don't understand this.

So I guess it serves a practical purpose after all.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

If you really must say it, please, you're less likely to seem prejudiced or offensive if you just leave the stupid disclaimer out.
My 11-year-old sister has yet to learn this.

But as to what this person was saying, I think he's actually right.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

Oops - hit "post comment" prematurely. Anyways, maybe maternal instincts and paternal instincts are just gender-specific terms for parental instincts.

sigh.

[scottrossi.livejournal.com]

i know what you mean about the whole "i don't mean to be prejudiced." thing. i get it all the time. people are like, "i dont mean to be prejudiced, but i think homosexuality is disgusting." and then on the inside, i cry, on the outside, i have to put on the front that i respect their opinion, when i really want to hack at them with a machete.

Re: sigh.

[conuly]

Seriously. The idea that you need a disclaimer is a BIG WARNING SIGN.

The other day, there was a post in customers_suck:

I don't mean to be racist, but the other day a group of asian teens came in and was rude.

After that sentence, race wasn't mentioned at all. The mention of race was completely superflous. In no world would she say "20 white teens", and all rudeness was better attributed to their being teenagers than their being asian (sorry, duckies), but then she had the nerve to get upset when I suggested she just take the reference to race out if she thought she had to apologise for it.

[toastedtuna.livejournal.com]

I don't mean to be biased, but I hate it when people can't explain their arguments and find the weakest, most lame thing in the world to say, and expect people to accept it as their final answer.

Men can't have maternal instincts because they have paternal instincts? OK. I understand what the person is TRYING to convey. It's stupid, but I get it. It's very weak. There is no difference between paternal and maternal, except that one refers to men and one to women. That's it. That's the ONLY difference.

It's like maternal grandparents & paternal grandparents. One refers to the child's mother's side of the family, and the other refers to the child's father's side of the family.

Someone should bait your OP and see if paternal grandparents never have maternal feelings because they are paternal.

[conuly]

*gigglesnorts*

She's finally calmed down enough to give an example. ONE example. Her and her husband/partner.

Yeah. I already know that different people have different views on parenting, sweetie. Now, please, can you prove that your differences were caused by gender and not something else, say, upbringing?

And I love:

Oh, I can't possibly tell you what paternal instincts are because I'm not a father and can't say what men feel!

If that's the case, then how the hell do you think you know that they don't have the same exact damn "instincts" as mothers!

I dont' believe in parental instinct anyway. And when I do agree it might exist, I think it can be wrong - for example, if you're in a plane and it depressurises, your instinct is to put the mask on your kid first, but the smart thing to do is to put it on yourself first.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

This one reminds me of an idiot that I debate every once in a while in another community. The format is:

*Question?*
*Dodge*
*Question?*
*Dodge*
*Question!
*But I've alreeeady aaanswered thaaaat! Yer stupid and you can't read and you're making stuff up ANYWAY!*

[hopefulnebula]

That is pitiful. Yet somehow engrossing. *keeps reading*

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I am so goddamned FUCKING tired of the smarmy non-response "Oh, you don't have any children? Then you could neeeveeerrr understand. When you give birth to a baby, THEN you'll understand."

Smirk smirk smug sneer *strangle*.

If you have to give birth to understand being a parent/mother, then how the hell do the thousands of adoptive parents (around a hundred thousand annually (http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/FactOverview.html#head))ever manage it? Or are you actually trying to say that adoptive parents are just naturally inferior to birth parents?

If you automatically acquire these "maternal instincts" when you give birth, how come there are children neglected/abused/murdered by their own mothers?

Gahhh.

[conuly]

See, that *might've* made sense for my statement that I don't believe there really are maternal instincts - I don't really believe that humans have instincts at all, at least not in the sense most people use the word.

But that's not what we were discussing on the thread.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

"How do you get through to people?"

Short answer: you don't. "Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain", remember? What makes you think you've got any chance against it?

I say this because I've seen you perseveratin' like a maniac lately, trying to get people to be logical. Perseveration is a super-power, and like any other super-power, can be used for either Good or Evil. Now, I'm not saying it's BIG Evil to correct other peoples' spelling unasked, or to insist they acknowledge that their opinions haven't got a shred of scientific evidence to back them up... and I'm sure your intention is to be helpful and informative... but it IS "little evil", i.e. tedious and kind of obnoxious.

Also futile, because you're not going to change anyone's mind that way. You could have every fact in the world on your side, and they could have nothing but "Well, my neighbor's sister read it in the Midnight Star", and it wouldn't matter. Unless you ENJOY getting into futile arguments online, there's really no point to doing it.

Now, me, I do enjoy it sometimes - at my other site, there's almost always a fight going on somewhere; if not, it's a moment's work to start one with one or more of the Usual Suspects. I jump in with my +3 Sword of Logic and proceed to lay waste to all contenders - nobody wins, nobody ever convinces anyone else of anything, but presumably everybody has a good time.

If that sounds like your idea of a good time, you may wish to seek out a more belligerent site than Livejournal in which to pick fights - UseNet is hard-core, so I wouldn't advise going there unless you've got extremely thick skin AND professional-grade firewalls, but there's all kinds of flame-friendly places on Yahoo.

If getting in fights with strangers over moot points is not your idea of a good time, then perhaps you need to think seriously about why you've been doing it so often lately.

About the "instinct" thing - no, there is no evidence that the "maternal instinct" exists in humans. Humans do have some instincts (http://www.grandin.com/references/genetics.html) - the startle reflex is one; the tendency for infants to direct their gaze toward a face, or a pattern resembling one, is another - not a lot, though. Most human behavior is learned.

Hatch a baby alligator, and even though she's never seen another alligator in all her days, when she gets big and you let her go in the swamp, she will automatically do all the things alligators do, including what passes for parenting behavior among alligators. Raise a baby monkey without parenting, and it will never be a successful parent, because primates aren't hard-wired the way birds, reptiles, and some mammals are.

Onn a tangential but related note, check out this cool essay by Temple Grandin (http://www.grandin.com/references/genetics.html)

[conuly]

If getting in fights with strangers over moot points is not your idea of a good time, then perhaps you need to think seriously about why you've been doing it so often lately.

I always do. And then I come out of the fog and it's like "what the fuck was that?"

Can I ask a favor? Next time you think I'm headed down the primrose path again, could you come smack me awake? Don't worry if you don't want to/can't/other word. 'salright either way.

[conuly]

Actually, interestingly, I've made a number of friends after having a stupid fight with them.

I don't understand this.

So I guess it serves a practical purpose after all.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

If you really must say it, please, you're less likely to seem prejudiced or offensive if you just leave the stupid disclaimer out.
My 11-year-old sister has yet to learn this.

But as to what this person was saying, I think he's actually right.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

Oops - hit "post comment" prematurely. Anyways, maybe maternal instincts and paternal instincts are just gender-specific terms for parental instincts.