I've got a question.

[conuly]

Everywhere you go, there are people talking about the problems with Youth Today. It is pointless to point out exactly how long people have been doing this, of course.

One thing that comes up about younger children is "Parents are so wishy washy and desperate to be loved, and they never tell their children what to do, and every time they make a statement they follow it with 'okay?' or 'all right?' which just demonstrates how wishy washy they are, and why are they surprised when their children are little brats?" (Sooner or later the problem of Youth Today is always the fault of Parents Today, which no doubt is the same story they were saying ever since the first grandparents, but, again, no use in saying it.)

And that argument always irks me, and it took me a while to figure out why, but I think I have it now. I want to run it by you all first.

When I say something, and follow it with "okay?", I'm not literally asking "is that okay with you?" Instead, the word "okay?" means something more like "Do you understand?", "Did you hear me?", "Please acknowledge my statement so we can proceed with whatever it is I've just said we're about to do", or "I wasn't aware that my statement implied a choice. Hop to it".

I've yet to hear Ana or her sister - or any child - interpret this as my asking for their permission, and if I did I'd first rephrase and explain, and later - if it persisted - either wonder if they had language difficulties or, alternatively, if they were being deliberately snotty with overly literal language interpretations. At any rate, I'd be more careful in speaking around them until and unless the problem cleared up... but in the meantime, whatever I'd said would still get done, because once I've explained that it doesn't mean what you think it means, there shouldn't be any more misunderstandings going around, right?

Now, it's possible that more children than the ones I know do interpret these tag questions this way, especially if they're hearing them for the first time from people who aren't their primary caregivers (although that would tend to blow the 'parents today' argument out of the water, wouldn't it?), but even if that's the case, I'm not sure that's actually the intent of the parents speaking. And if it's not, then the use of these questions at the ends of sentences can't be said to imply wishy washy parenting, no matter how the children interpret these statements, right?

I'm not arguing that there isn't a level of excessively lenient parenting out there. Heck, it may even be higher than it was in the recent past (recent being a relative term) for all I know! But I don't think that this is the proof. What say you?

Comments

[leora.livejournal.com]

I hadn't heard people complain about the use of tag questions when talking to children before, so it's hard for me to have much of a reaction to someone saying the complaint is silly.

I think you're right that the use of tag questions is generally used to make sure the child heard and understood and thus isn't an indicator of bad parenting.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

I agree entirely on the tag question issue.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

Very few people actually stop to think that language is sort of context-specific.

[conuly]

And yet, they're still able to speak it contextually. Why is that?

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

Probably because they're using language on a monkey-hear, monkey-do level rather than knowing and understanding the rules.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

I agree; it's a linguistic quirk. That said, it definitely can backfire. I try hard not to end my instructions to Sam with "okay?" but with "understand?" because that's what I actually mean. It's hard to retrain myself, though. Either way, I'm definitely NOT asking his permission.

It's like the bogus argument about "Parents Today don't tell their kids 'no.'" It doesn't necessarily mean that parents don't set limits, just that some of us try to avoid the use of the word "no" which we find ineffective anyway.

(And don't forget, the problem with Youth Today dates back at least as far as the days of Socrates.)

[conuly]

(And don't forget, the problem with Youth Today dates back at least as far as the days of Socrates.)

Oh, it was an old story even then. You can count on that.

It's like the bogus argument about "Parents Today don't tell their kids 'no.'" It doesn't necessarily mean that parents don't set limits, just that some of us try to avoid the use of the word "no" which we find ineffective anyway.

Or that the only reason to avoid the use of the word no is to coddle a child's preshus self esteem and the real world won't do that, etc. etc. etc, to which I can only say 1. that nobody is proposing sending a three year old into the cold hard world, so they can shut it and 2. that's actually *not* the only reason people do the "rephrasing nos" thing, although it certainly does make life more pleasant for all parties.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Self-esteem? Really?

I say it because if I say, "Don't throw your green beans!" all he hears is "Throw your green beans!" and immediately complies. If I say, "Put the green beans in your mouth," he hears, "Put the green beans in your mouth," and immediately complies.

For that matter, my mother gets him to eat by saying, "Don't you eat that green bean!" And then of course he eats it.

[conuly]

Thing is, people look around modern culture, they see a few things they dislike about it, and then they cobble them together as though they're connected.

[feebeeglee.livejournal.com]

I usually hear people say it like they are asking permission though. Like "We have to leave in five minutes, okaaaaaay?"

[conuly]

But are they asking permission? From their behavior, and their kids' behavior, how does it look then?

You can't glean much from intonation because that's not the same in all dialects.

[feebeeglee.livejournal.com]

Very much so. The child says "No!" and the parent caves.

[conuly]

Ah, well, can't win everything. Unless you're that kid, I suppose. You can at least rest assured that *I* do not do that.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I've gotta agree with feebeeglee here--I've heard parents quite literally asking permission of their kids (typically, yes, on such things as time limits) and caving when the kid says no.

With other parents, the inflection is clearly a brisk, no-nonsense tone and the response from the child is usually "'kay." (That's probably the pattern you refer to in your post.)

[conuly]

Sometimes I do ask the nieces about time limits, to be fair, but very openly: "Hey, guys, do you want to leave in five minutes or ten?" "TEN!" "Great, this is your ten minute warning." or sometimes "Hey, we can leave now and stop by the bookstore on the way home, or we can hang out another 15 minutes and leave then." "Stay!" "Got it, I'll give you your five minute warning in a bit, go play."

Which is the way to do it, isn't it?

Which pattern - asking as asking, or asking as telling - do you think you hear more often then? (Not like you could reliably answer that like this, but let's pretend.)

[marveen.livejournal.com]

Sounds like you've got it down.

I really have not the faintest idea about frequency--it's been years since I was around people with small kids anyway, at least on a regular basis. (The divorce situation Does Not Count, since that was dysfunctional in just about every arena possible.)

I would also say that during the occasional grocery-store proximity, I notice the "asking as asking" pattern more because it irritates me.

[failstoexist.livejournal.com]

I find that if you phrase something in the form of a question, you need to be willing to restate that as a command if the question is not answered to your liking. plenty of parents are not. I'm perfectly happy to tell my students "let's try that again. I meant, your direction is to go to the table." if I've asked them to go to the table and they say no. But sometimes I'm asking...if you want to do an errand with me, if you want something to look at while you wait, etc. I get in the habit of the "OK?" as in "do you get it?" as well, but I have learned over time to say "got it?" or "understand?" instead. I mess up occasionally, but in general, with kids who can't handle having things phrased as a question, I don't give them the choice. Parents don't often know if their kids will be able to get to what they really mean, or don't want to follow up with a statement instead of a question....that's the real problem

[leora.livejournal.com]

I hadn't heard people complain about the use of tag questions when talking to children before, so it's hard for me to have much of a reaction to someone saying the complaint is silly.

I think you're right that the use of tag questions is generally used to make sure the child heard and understood and thus isn't an indicator of bad parenting.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

I agree entirely on the tag question issue.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

Very few people actually stop to think that language is sort of context-specific.

[conuly]

And yet, they're still able to speak it contextually. Why is that?

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

Probably because they're using language on a monkey-hear, monkey-do level rather than knowing and understanding the rules.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

I agree; it's a linguistic quirk. That said, it definitely can backfire. I try hard not to end my instructions to Sam with "okay?" but with "understand?" because that's what I actually mean. It's hard to retrain myself, though. Either way, I'm definitely NOT asking his permission.

It's like the bogus argument about "Parents Today don't tell their kids 'no.'" It doesn't necessarily mean that parents don't set limits, just that some of us try to avoid the use of the word "no" which we find ineffective anyway.

(And don't forget, the problem with Youth Today dates back at least as far as the days of Socrates.)

[conuly]

(And don't forget, the problem with Youth Today dates back at least as far as the days of Socrates.)

Oh, it was an old story even then. You can count on that.

It's like the bogus argument about "Parents Today don't tell their kids 'no.'" It doesn't necessarily mean that parents don't set limits, just that some of us try to avoid the use of the word "no" which we find ineffective anyway.

Or that the only reason to avoid the use of the word no is to coddle a child's preshus self esteem and the real world won't do that, etc. etc. etc, to which I can only say 1. that nobody is proposing sending a three year old into the cold hard world, so they can shut it and 2. that's actually *not* the only reason people do the "rephrasing nos" thing, although it certainly does make life more pleasant for all parties.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Self-esteem? Really?

I say it because if I say, "Don't throw your green beans!" all he hears is "Throw your green beans!" and immediately complies. If I say, "Put the green beans in your mouth," he hears, "Put the green beans in your mouth," and immediately complies.

For that matter, my mother gets him to eat by saying, "Don't you eat that green bean!" And then of course he eats it.

[conuly]

Thing is, people look around modern culture, they see a few things they dislike about it, and then they cobble them together as though they're connected.

[feebeeglee.livejournal.com]

I usually hear people say it like they are asking permission though. Like "We have to leave in five minutes, okaaaaaay?"

[conuly]

But are they asking permission? From their behavior, and their kids' behavior, how does it look then?

You can't glean much from intonation because that's not the same in all dialects.

[feebeeglee.livejournal.com]

Very much so. The child says "No!" and the parent caves.

[conuly]

Ah, well, can't win everything. Unless you're that kid, I suppose. You can at least rest assured that *I* do not do that.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I've gotta agree with feebeeglee here--I've heard parents quite literally asking permission of their kids (typically, yes, on such things as time limits) and caving when the kid says no.

With other parents, the inflection is clearly a brisk, no-nonsense tone and the response from the child is usually "'kay." (That's probably the pattern you refer to in your post.)

[conuly]

Sometimes I do ask the nieces about time limits, to be fair, but very openly: "Hey, guys, do you want to leave in five minutes or ten?" "TEN!" "Great, this is your ten minute warning." or sometimes "Hey, we can leave now and stop by the bookstore on the way home, or we can hang out another 15 minutes and leave then." "Stay!" "Got it, I'll give you your five minute warning in a bit, go play."

Which is the way to do it, isn't it?

Which pattern - asking as asking, or asking as telling - do you think you hear more often then? (Not like you could reliably answer that like this, but let's pretend.)

[marveen.livejournal.com]

Sounds like you've got it down.

I really have not the faintest idea about frequency--it's been years since I was around people with small kids anyway, at least on a regular basis. (The divorce situation Does Not Count, since that was dysfunctional in just about every arena possible.)

I would also say that during the occasional grocery-store proximity, I notice the "asking as asking" pattern more because it irritates me.

[failstoexist.livejournal.com]

I find that if you phrase something in the form of a question, you need to be willing to restate that as a command if the question is not answered to your liking. plenty of parents are not. I'm perfectly happy to tell my students "let's try that again. I meant, your direction is to go to the table." if I've asked them to go to the table and they say no. But sometimes I'm asking...if you want to do an errand with me, if you want something to look at while you wait, etc. I get in the habit of the "OK?" as in "do you get it?" as well, but I have learned over time to say "got it?" or "understand?" instead. I mess up occasionally, but in general, with kids who can't handle having things phrased as a question, I don't give them the choice. Parents don't often know if their kids will be able to get to what they really mean, or don't want to follow up with a statement instead of a question....that's the real problem