conuly | I have always been a picker

I used to pick at my scabs until they bled, and then pick at them again once they healed up. I used to pick at peeling paint - I've mostly stopped that habit. But what I really like to do, really really, is get the peeling bark on trees that exfoliate like that. I've been known to cross the street and then stop for five minutes at a time to get at the London Plane trees on my block.

If I think about it much, when I think about it, I generally would attribute this sort of thing to being autistic. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of people who aren't autistic who do this too, but probably not many who go out of their way to do it for fun. I could be wrong here, of course.

Which is where this gets interesting. I went out to bring my mother her coffee, and before I went in I spent a few minutes with our crape myrtle. And my mother said I was just like her mother.

My mother has a very complicated relationship with me and autism. On the one hand, she swears she knew when I was a small infant. On the other hand, she is eager to downplay any signs of autism that I might ever bring up - especially if they're traits shared with anybody in the family other than her father, who really was undeniably autistic. Either she denies that the traits exist, or she denies that they're quite strong, or she denies that they have anything to do with autism whatsoever. (There are some things she can't do this to, like the topographical agnosia, but otherwise she gives it the good ol' college try!)

So for her to criticize what I'm pretty sure is an autistic trait, and attribute it to her mother instead of her father - well, I could've used this as a segue into my ongoing attempts to speak with her on the subject of the broader autistic phenotype, assortative mating, and our family. But given recent events, I decided instead to talk about exfoliating bark and how I'm sure the reduction of dead bark will decrease the risk of a forest fire in our backyard.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

alatefeline

<3

Tree bark is excellent.

From:

conuly

It is!

Was doing it around a kid, and the kid said "My mom told me not to touch trees because I might get ticks". Never sure what to say to that sort of comment, but eventually I said that ticks are more common in long grass than on trees.

From:

alatefeline

I think grounding the conversation in reality and science is actually a really good response. It sidesteps the social problem of 'I don't agree with what your parent is trying to teach you with this just-so-story, but I don't feel that its appropriate or helpful or even informative for me to directly contradict it,' it shows respect for the kid's comprehension, it addresses the micro-issue at hand (that's indirectly brought up the larger issue of 'is it socially acceptable to be highly tactile in this context'), and it lets the kid know that, if and when they want a broader worldview than what they've been taught, looking up relevant facts can help.

From:

conuly

Their mom is just a bit more overprotective than I am. I sometimes wonder if she realizes that this is the case....

From:

lilysea

I used to love peeling the bark off paperbark trees. They have a very specific kind of thin white papery bark, that peels off very easily, and feels like the edible ricepaper that used to come with Asian nougat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melaleuca_quinquenervia#/media/File:(85)_Paperbark.jpg

From:

conuly

I'm not surprised it's a myrtle! It looks great!

From:

jesse_the_k

What a marvelous sight that is. Do they rattle in a breeze?

From:

lilysea

No, the bark has the texture of thin flexible polystyrene sheets... too soft and flexible to make much noise.

From:

musyc

Oh, the picking. Yeah, I do that all the time. Bitty scars upon scars because I can't let something heal. The scabs are bothersome.

We don't have trees that have easily peeled bark around here, but I will take a grass blade and slowly split it into strips. Maybe that's why I like string cheese so much. :)

From:

conuly

Do you make grass whistles once you've stripped them down, or just pick a new one?

From:

musyc

Heh, I have tried! But apparently that's not a skill I possess.

From:

flexagon

My picking and scratching has been attributed to OCD, but I've read multiple books about OCD and it doesn't feel right. Never has. If I really do have OCD, it must be pure compulsion. I don't mind though, because the diagnosis got me Prozac and the Prozac does help.

Interesting to hear about it being related to the autism spectrum instead... I'm there, too, though just on the "geeky" end of things rather than "clinically diagnosed".

From:

conuly

To be fair, I don't know for sure it's related to autism, I just strongly suspect it is.

From:

alatefeline

Another autistic person here, also very drawn to textures, and also sometimes have an issue trying to not scratch/pick skin irregularities.

From:

lilysea

I also picked tree bark and scabs,

but for me I always thought it was an Anxiety / PTSD thing rather than an autism thing.

From:

conuly

Could be. I mean, I'm making the usual equation here: I do it, I don't see too many other people do it, I'm autistic and they're not, therefore... it's probably an autism thing!

But you can see where the logic is a bit shaky.

From:

kutsuwamushi

I do it, but I don't really do it much around other people. Scabs because it's kind of socially unacceptable, and things like paint because... I don't have many opportunities? But I'll peel my nailpolish off.

But I don't think that means it's not an autism thing, for you.

Like, autistic people describe themselves as doing a lot of behaviors that I do, but I don't think I experience them the same way? E.g. stimming versus plain ol' fidgeting.

From:

fred_mouse

On paint and social non-acceptance -- there is a stairwell that I have frequented intermittently over the last two decades, where the paint on the hand rails has always been peeling/bubbling. I frequently stop at a hidden spot and pick some, but only for short amounts of time because I'm worried about getting caught. Of all the odd things I do, this is possibly the one I'm most uncomfortable about being seen to do. There was one point I was doing it often enough I wondered if I was going to succeed in getting a clear section, but then mostly stopped.

From:

shehasathree

When I was a kid (and, in fact, to this day), my parents had a folding picnic table, and ours lasted considerably longer than those belonging to all the other families with whom we went camping, probably partly because when the paint at the edges of the tabletop first started peeling, my dad lacquered over all the edges, making it impossible to pick.

Otherwise, literally everyone, adult or child alike, would tend to sit at (whichever of the various same-model tables with their bubbling and peeling paint) and pick it off, which... rather accelerated the demise of any given table.

From:

fred_mouse

I kind of feel that sitting and picking has a different social perspective than stopping to pick somewhere that people usually dash through? I mean, it probably started because my hips used to be much worse and I couldn't always do a full flight of stairs in one go, so would do it to pass the time while the pain decreased, and then I would have probably picked it up when the fatigue was at its worse for the same reason, so I have all that internalised ablism to go with it. Because only weird people stop part-way up stairs, they aren't stopping places. That kind of thing.

From:

shehasathree

I think I get the internalised ableism aspect (I find it v difficult to “do nothing” if I have to stop doing “normal” physical activities, too), and can totally see myself potentially falling into a similar habit if given the opportunity. I think you’re right about the differing social connotations, too. I think sitting vs. stopping in an “unusual” place makes the sitting scenario more socially acceptable, but probably the rest of the situational factors make the sitting-at-the-table scenario less socially acceptable? (I mean, my mum used to *tell* or ask people to stop when they’d be sitting and chatting and peeling/picking, because it really would’ve destroyed the table eventually, but it just became obvious that, on average, people...couldn’t. At least (If I’ve understood correctly) your picking wasn’t going to really damage the underlying structure? Idk.)

From:

fred_mouse

Yes, I think my feelings all have to do with being outside the norm. And no, the stairs are just fine without the flaking paint. Not stopping when your mother asked though is just rude! I can stop picking, as long as I'm paying attention.

From:

kengr

I picked at scabs, but not till they bled (well, not often :-). And I get the tree bark thing.

What I found that was *great* was stryofoam. the kind that is essentially a zillion "beads" of foam stuck together.

I could pick that apart for hours. and of course part of the game is that you have to pick loose whole "beads", not break them.

And since broken chunks aren't that hard to find (most cheap ice chests are made out of it without anything to protect it, so they break easily), it's a "cheap" fidget.

You can also do a weird sort of "sculpture" by deciding which beads to pick and which to leave.

Oh yeah, a pin or needle helps you pick apart the "joints" between the beads.

From:

conuly

You know what's really great to do with styrofoam, the cheaper sort? Put nail polish on it. It'll dissolve into little bumps.

From:

kengr

I'd take the picked pieces and put them in a small jar, with some model paint thinner. You need one with a tight lid.

Add enough and you get this thick syrupy liquid. Which you can paint on things to give them a coat of polystyrene plastic.

Obviously, you do this to things like wood, metal or paper *not* plastics.

From:

hudebnik

I discovered by accident that model-airplane glue dissolves styrofoam....

From:

hudebnik

My wife has been telling me for years to stop picking scabs. It hadn't occurred to me that it might have anything to do with the autism spectrum (of which I have a few symptoms, but decidedly not others).

From:

randomdreams

fwiw I obsessively pluck out beard hairs, but only from one area of my chin, and while I can refrain from picking at scabs, I rarely do.

From:

archangelbeth

*makes shifty-eyes about picking at scabs*

I pick off nail polish -- well, the clear-coat stuff, that I use because my nails have begun splitting off the top layer from the bottom one, and it snags on things. So I paint clear stuff on to hold it together, and don't put color on because... when the polish starts peeling off, OH BOY PEELING TIME!

...far as I know I'm mostly neurotypical, but spouse and kid are both spectrum, sooooooo... who knows.

From:

rahirah

I used to love peeling the bark off pine trees, pulling away the grey, weathered outer layer and revealing the rich red convolutions of the bark underneath... it was like discovering a secret world.

From:

elenbarathi.livejournal.com

Boy howdy, I sure hear that - my entire family on both sides is on the spectrum, and totally in denial about it. Both of my husbands the same. My daughter's fiance the same. Assortive mating is very definitely a thing, but people (understandably) aren't eager to label themselves with a stigmatizing disorder-diagnosis, even when they and everyone they hang out with are classic Aspie Geeks with all the trimmings and stimmings.

The reduction of dead bark will decrease the bark-beetle habitat, which in turn will probably be good for the trees, but bad for whatever birds are eating the bark-beetles.

I've got that whole picking-things issue too, though I have it mostly under control these days. Leaving my cuticles alone is still the biggest challenge.

Y'know, in Dean Koontz's Odd Thomas books, the character Annamaria (who may actually be the Virgin Mary) is described as having 'skin the texture of soap'. Think of it! I'm even more envious of her than I was of those people in The Andromeda Strain who went through the decontamnation chamber that flash-fries all one's body hair right off. This constant erupting of skin and extruding of keratin and what-not does get to be a bit much at times.

From:

conuly

Assortive mating is very definitely a thing, but people (understandably) aren't eager to label themselves with a stigmatizing disorder-diagnosis, even when they and everyone they hang out with are classic Aspie Geeks with all the trimmings and stimmings.

That's part of the problem, of course - because my mother mostly associates only with other people who are probably part of the broader autistic phenotype, she has an extremely strange perception of what is and is not "normal". Those people she doesn't spend time with? They're "stupid and boring" (because they can't rattle off scads of obscure facts, or get interested in the minutiae of anything....)

The reduction of dead bark will decrease the bark-beetle habitat, which in turn will probably be good for the trees, but bad for whatever birds are eating the bark-beetles.

Also for bark beetles, I suppose, but the bark is always about to fall off anyway so I can't get too worked up about it.

And you know what I thought of in the shower? Remember when I said Moonpie was flopping around like a dead fish, and you said dead fish don't do that?

I should've responded "Yes, I'm aware that dead fish flop no tails". Too late now, but I'm calling a do-over on the conversation.

From:

elenbarathi.livejournal.com

LMAO, good one! Classic staircase wit!

"They're "stupid and boring" (because they can't rattle off scads of obscure facts, or get interested in the minutiae of anything....)"

Um well, she's not wrong, exactly. NTs, normies, mundanies, mehums, noncompos - whatever one wants to call them, their distinguishing characteristic is that they're not Aspie Geeks. They can't rattle off scads of obscure facts because they don't pay attention to facts unless they're sugar-coated in emotional content, and because their memories are sketchy. They can't have a rational discussion because they don't give a shit about rationality. They believe all kinds of weird shit, and can't even say why they believe it. A lot of them have no special interests beyond social drama (which expands to fill the space one allows it,) no skills beyond what they need for work and basic living, and read nothing but brief articles and light fiction, if they read at all.

They're not necessarily stupid, though. They're like that because NT children are highly susceptible to social programming, and our society programs children to be dull-normal little workers obsessed with social status. Not necessarily boring, either - quite fascinating, actually, and more than a little tragic: they could have been so much more. But then, so could we all.

It seems likely that the amount of bark you pull off is not significant to either the tree or the other critters, because after all, you can only reach so high, and you do have other things to do.

Heh, "dead fish flop no tails" - I'm still grinning!

From:

conuly

It seems likely that the amount of bark you pull off is not significant to either the tree or the other critters, because after all, you can only reach so high, and you do have other things to do.

If only I weren't scared to climb trees... sigh.

From:

elenbarathi.livejournal.com

Are they the kind one could climb? The sort we've got here that exfoliate sheets of bark all grow big trunks straight up, with no branches within reach.

I still miss the climby deciduous forests of the East - alas, the good climby-trees here are also good hornet-nest trees, both underground and in the branches, and in winter when there's not hornets, everything's wet and slippery. I'm not scared of climbing, but I really hate falling.

From:

conuly

Sure, if I took along a stepstool first! And maybe tossed a rope over a limb, pulleyed myself up....

From:

conuly

They can't rattle off scads of obscure facts because they don't pay attention to facts unless they're sugar-coated in emotional content, and because their memories are sketchy. They can't have a rational discussion because they don't give a shit about rationality. They believe all kinds of weird shit, and can't even say why they believe it. A lot of them have no special interests beyond social drama (which expands to fill the space one allows it,) no skills beyond what they need for work and basic living, and read nothing but brief articles and light fiction, if they read at all.

I think we're confusing NTs here with narcissists and possibly sociopaths. Most NTs aren't that bad. (I suppose Trump is, but if he's neurologically typical, I'll eat my hat. A more classic case of narcissism we'll never see. My god, have you seen that picture of his bookcase?)

From:

elenbarathi.livejournal.com

No, no - talking about perfectly-nice, reasonably-intelligent, more or less middle-class, ordinary NTs. The reasons I cited above are the very reasons why those nice normal people are so easily scammed by sociopaths and demagogues: because they have sketchy memories, value emotion over logic, don't read seriously, and are prone to uncritical belief, they are 'easy meat' for exploitative liars. I would agree that neurotypicality (http://speciaal.forges55.be/neurotypicals/understanding-neurotypicality/) is on the sociopathy spectrum, but that doesn't mean all NTS are like Donald Trump, any more than I am like Temple Grandin.

Trump may well be A.D.D. in addition to being a malignant narcissist and/or sociopath who may also have some form of dementia. However, that has nothing to do with his rampant anti-intellectualism (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism), which is the key to his popularity among the American populace (https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-08-02/policy-expert-explains-how-anti-intellectualism-gave-rise-donald-trump).

I've seen the picture, but I didn't know how much credence to give it. Anyway, it doesn't really signify, as lots of people these days read only e-texts. My house is overflowing with books in every room, but most of the actual serious reading I do is online. Not that I think Trump does any serious reading - in addition to his other issues, he seems to be only semi-literate.

From:

elenbarathi.livejournal.com

Heh, the Uncyclopedia entry on Neurotypical Syndrome (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Neurotypical_syndrome) cites the "Diabolic and Sadistic Manual of Mental Disorders" (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders).