Before we start this (and you know I love controversy!).. I am *not* debating my views.

[conuly]

Sorry. If you wish to know my feelings on the dairy industry, there is one site on my links list which should make the point very clear, even if you never visit it.

I just have a question. Got that? No arguments over the merits of consuming dairy products or alternate sources of calcium or anything. Just a question.

How could anybody reasonably say that people have to drink milk to be healthy? No species could possibly evolve with a necessity for the milk of another species, or even their own species after a certain age. That's insane! We can't escape our evolution, and we haven't had domesticated animals long enough for us to evolve to need them. So, how is it justified to say we need milk? I'm actually curious here, not argumentative.

Comments

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

We don't need milk, but you're right. We can't escape our evolution.

We no longer eat bone marrow. Many of us don't eat the vegetables that would give us calcium. That's why milk is supposed to be a required nutrient. It's really not (just ask any vegan that knows how to eat). Humans are hunter-gatherers, but since we're not running around we've had to make infinite concessions to the supposedly delicate system of our nutrition.

Also-- humans live longer. We've evolved to only have a lifespan of 40 years. We haven't changed to live longer due to evolution, but thanks to medicine and generally living better. So we have slightly different requirements than we did way back when. Women need more calcium because osteoporosis sets in. Trust me, during the paleolithic era and the agrarian revolution women did NOT worry about osteoporosis. So we haven't really evolved to need milk. We've evolved to need certain nutrients found in milk.

So yeah, we don't NEED milk, it's just a very convenient source of necessary nutrients.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I need to sound trying to sound intelligent at seven in the morning. But I think I still basically said what I wanted to.

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

It's also a very convenient source of DEATH!

I wouldn't say that we evolved to need nutrients found in milk; more like some of us evolved to tolerate it. The majority of the world's population is still lactose intolerant, because after infancy, we can chew our food and don't need our mothers to preprocess it for us any more. So the body stops making lactase, plain and simple.

And there are many studies that show that milk actually can contribute to osteoperosis. Ever notice how they stopped running "Milk. It does a body good?" Well, that's because it doesn't. Because ironically, the proteins in milk strip more calcium from your body than you absorb by drinking it.

Hi Conuly, remember me? :)

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

Oh, and incidentally, I have two friends from SI who don't drink milk or use dairy and aren't vegan. In fact, they both eat lots of meat, so they're nowhere near vegan. One is severely allergic to it, and the other did his senior thesis on the health risks associated with milk consumption. I'm not sure if he stopped drinking milk before or after he did that paper though. If you've ever in your travels run into either Adam Borrell or Jay Flynn, tell them Dan Dadap says hi. :)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I've heard that one too, I was just saying that's why it's so commonly suggested-- besides, I don't really trust new studies that much. New studies have proven that asparagus not only decreases your chances of cancer, but causes cancer too! I say you eat what you want.

Besides. I like milk.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

You know... I looked around that site and you might want to find a better one. That particular one reeks of "ban dihydrogen monoxide!" type fanaticism. Anyone that says "we're bringing the truth and we're branded bad people, see, see, look at these other guys that were considered loony!" doesn't have a solid case. Period.

I'm not starting an argument, but I just wanted to say that website, however good a point it's trying to make, completely invalidates itself as bunk. So even if you've seen these results elsewhere, I wouldn't trust anything it has to say unless it can be backed up with another source.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Forgot to ask this: but where do you get the idea that most of the world is lactose intolerant?

Rock on!

[leolapyre.livejournal.com]

I'm not a vegan, but I'm slowly trying to become one. Yes, I have been trying to avoid the evil dairy. Go soy milk!

[georgiapeachy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that site is a little bit fanatic in my opinion, I see they have a valid point, but a lot of their things seem like scare tactics. I find the things about flo-jos death being because of milk esspecially offensive. I'm sure you can find problems with anything, you could start a NOTAPPLES website that could have studies on all the pesticides that are on apples, and all the types of rot and worms apples have. A NOTWHEAT website would have all the stuff about how many people suffer from problems associated with wheat allergies they don't even know they have, how harvesting wheat uses poorly treated migrant workers and how it kills innocent animals living in the fields, how wheat contains traces of poisons etc.

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I also tend to be wary of facts proven by "studies," as you can manipulate them to say most anything you want.

And North America and Europe are the only places I've been where there are significant numbers of people who aren't lactose intolerant; in many parts of Asia, the very idea of eating cheese is just... unthinkable. Disgusting, even. Also there are varying levels of lactose intolerance; plenty of people who are lactose intolerant don't even know it.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

What got me was their fascination with pus.

Pus is plasma and white blood cells. There's nothing gross about pus itself-- but it's meant to clean up an infection, so the end result gets a bit nasty. The substance itself is pretty dang innocuous.

I'm not some insane pro-milk person (but what else will I drink with my cookies!?) but call me leery of studies, especially after studying psychology.

[georgiapeachy.livejournal.com]

Soy has also been shown to prevent some cancers, BUT CAUSE others!

Two senior US government scientists, Drs. Daniel Doerge and Daniel Sheehan, have revealed that chemicals in soy could increase the risk of breast cancer in women, brain damage in both men and women, and abnormalities in infants.

The scientists decided to break ranks with colleagues in the FDA and oppose its decision last year to approve a health claim that soy reduced the risk of heart disease.

They wrote an internal protest letter warning of 28 studies revealing toxic effects of soy, mostly focusing on chemicals in soy known as isoflavones, which have effects similar to the female hormone estrogen.

They claim that research has shown a clear link between soy and the potential for adverse effects in humans.

Soy may lead to health problems in animals including altering sexual development of fetuses and causing thyroid disorders.

Some studies show that chemicals in soy may increase the chances of estrogen-dependent breast cancer.

According to their letter:

'There is abundant evidence that some of the isoflavones found in soy demonstrate toxicity in estrogen sensitive tissues and in the thyroid.'

'During pregnancy in humans, isoflavones per se could be a risk factor for abnormal brain and reproductive tract development.'
According to one of the scientists, parents who give their children soy milk or formulas "are exposing their children to chemicals which we know have adverse effects in animals. It's like doing a large uncontrolled and unmonitored experiment on infants.'

The soy industry insists that the adverse effects seen in animals do not apply to humans.

The Guardian August 13, 2000

In my opinion people do not need milk, soy milk either, they both have pitfalls, but in moderation I don't think they are going to kill you, in excess anything can kill. I personally alternate between the two, one week i'll use soy, the next i'll use milk.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Ah, alright. I know most of the world isn't westerners, but I don't know about things over in Asia-- just curious :D It makes sense, especially considering India. My mother's lactose intolerant, so I'm getting in all my ice cream before I follow suit. That just reminds me of Super Dude from all that, and I thought it was "lactoast and tolerant." It makes much more sense to me now though *g*

I studied psychology and I found out just how easy it is to work a study to your benefit. There was even a guy that graduated from my school that just last week did a survey of the students and drug use-- and outright said 'I may or may not use your results." Which is more-than-easily translated into "I've got my thesis. If what you say doesn't agree with it, I chuck it." Too many ways to manipulate samples. =/

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I never knew that about soy. That's quite frankly... scary. Good thing I don't like soy!

My opinion is: living causes cancer. So if you don't shoot yourself now, enjoy yourself. Just not in excess. There's a lot of "having a uterus causes uterine cancer" type handwringing in the scientific community lately... I've learned to ignore most of it.

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

It is a bit over-the-top, yes. I do happen to agree with what they have to say, but my opinion is, perhaps, a bit biased (Yes, I'm vegan.)

Regardless, if the question is "can people not consume dairy products and still be healthy?" my answer would be definitely, Yes. Because there are entire communities of people who don't practice dairy consumption, and are healthy. Having lived in such a community, I can say for certain that dairy does not contribute to good health.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I know it's possible to be healthy without dairy. My problem with the site was that it was pretty much saying you were committing suicide if you do consume it.

[conuly]

Most asians (the majority of the world) most africans (a good portion of the world) and a fair number of europeans are lactose intolerant. There are also many people who are allergic to or intolerant of casein, also found in milk... but casein allergies generally don't show themselves physically, instead you get moodiness or extra sensitivity to touch/sight/sound, or, if it does show physically, you might get asthma like symptoms, which most people don't associate with food.

[conuly]

*grins* Will do!

[conuly]

The site is fanatic, no doubt about it :) But everything they say is backed up with studies, which they reference. You can look up the individual studies yourself.

Re: Rock on!

[conuly]

I don't eat much dairy... in general. But it sneaks in where you don't expect! *sighs* I'm going to work harder on removing it from my diet in the spring, winter is a bad time for me to be messing with my diet.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

I think you're right.

And now, there are TONS of calcium supplements that don't involve dairy.

If I could find a soy milk that was easy to obtain and didn't make me wanna hurl....

The American meat and dairy industries sicken me, and I continually debate if I would be able to go vegan in a healthy way to take one more person off the consumer list. My weakness for certain meats and other foods would take some very radical changes for me.

[conuly]

Forget "supplements". Try dark leafy greens. Do you realize that the WHO reccomends about 1/3 as much calcium as the FDA? Because, of course, the WHO doesn't expect most of your calcium to come from dairy.

Even if you can't go vegan, you can reduce the amount of meat/dairy/eggs you eat. Try only eating animal products once a day, as part of a side dish. Then switch it to once every other day, or twice a week. That's not as strong a moral stand, but it's still better than eating meat every day, at every meal, as the focus of every meal.

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've seen the anti-soy studies too. Again, I don't generally trust facts that are supported by "studies" unless there's a bit more to go on.

I do have a problem with people who see soy milk as a "replacement" for milk. Because why replace something you don't need in the first place? I drink far less soy milk than I drank cow milk when I did drink it, which already was almost none, as drinking dairy would often induce me to have asthma attacks and other general respiratory difficulty. (Asthma, incidentally, being one of my many afflictions which miraculousy disappeared when I stopped consuming dairy some time ago.)

But anyway, I think the idea of soy formula for infants, as mentioned at the end of that article, is just as silly as feeding them cow milk. Human milk is best for human infants, because it's designed for them and they for it.

[conuly]

Urg, skipped your last sentence, yes I *do* remember you! *grins*

[squittycat.livejournal.com]

I've found that the Silk and Vitasoy brands are most palatable to people who prefer the taste of cow milk, and both are available at many grocery stores. Make sure you get the Vitasoy that's marketed to "Westerners" ... the type marketed to Asians (You'll know it from the square boxy-box with Chinese markings all over to it) is probably of the type that "makes you wanna hurl." Remember, though, that many people feel like hurling when they drink cow milk! Anyway, Vitasoy in the tall, milk-carton-looking carton is nice and creamy; give it a try. Again, Silk is fine too, but there's a rumor that it's manufactured by the Dairy Industry so that they can continue to make money off people who don't buy dairy products. Dunno if it's true... I don't drink the stuff anyway. :)