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conuly
Because it kills.
Yes, this boy committed suicide - but he was killed by the people who wouldn't let it drop, who had to bother him day after day. I shouldn't have to say this, it should be obvious, but there's always somebody who thinks I'm wrong, that if the bullied had just fit in, had conformed more, it would be different. Well, that's not true. If the victim fits in, the bullies just switch to somebody new. The only way to stop it is to make sure everybody knows that this is unacceptable.
Yes, this boy committed suicide - but he was killed by the people who wouldn't let it drop, who had to bother him day after day. I shouldn't have to say this, it should be obvious, but there's always somebody who thinks I'm wrong, that if the bullied had just fit in, had conformed more, it would be different. Well, that's not true. If the victim fits in, the bullies just switch to somebody new. The only way to stop it is to make sure everybody knows that this is unacceptable.
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Actually, that's not true in my experience...
Date: 2004-12-06 08:41 pm (UTC)No, what they do is deride the victim's never-quite-satisfactory efforts to fit in until the explosion happens.
Autobiographical evidence: in middle school I was mocked for not wearing makeup. Accordingly, I asked my parents for some and started wearing it in eighth grade. Now the topic of the mockery was not my lack of makeup but my inexpert application of it (since my mother didn't wear makeup either).
Re: Actually, that's not true in my experience...
Date: 2004-12-06 08:45 pm (UTC)The solution isn't to ask the victims to fit in, or to stop-gap the problem and say "bullying these people isn't right" (gays, blacks, people-who-don't-wear-makeup), it's to say "bullying is wrong, you intolerant jerks" and mean it.
Re: Actually, that's not true in my experience...
Date: 2004-12-06 08:54 pm (UTC)I've always wondered why high-school students, often less than a year away from legal adulthood, are permitted to get away with crap that in the Real World could result in charges being filed.
(Autobio. anecdote again: sophomore English class, teacher who marked you tardy if not seated when bell rang, I ran in at last second & was shoved by seated miscreant. Miscreant cried "tardy!", teacher said "not if she hadn't been pushed", end of matter. That's assault, is it not?)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 08:46 pm (UTC)That aside, I really think the problem is schools need to take these kinds of things more seriously. Bullies need harsher punishments and the people that were bullied need extra support and possibly school counseling to help them out.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 08:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 08:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 10:24 pm (UTC)With all due respect, I'm going to have to disagree. If I went out tomorrow and shot someone in the face, I couldn't blame it on the depression -- it'd still be my fault. Some mental illnesses erase your ability to discriminate between right and wrong, but depression isn't one of them. I am fully responsible for myself and my actions at all times no matter how depressed I happen to be.
I was bullied, too. I got called every name in the book -- homophobic, gynophobic, whatever. I was sexually harassed and assaulted (in a minor fashion) throughout much of middle school. When I was in third grade, some girls ganged up on me and stoned me, for Christ's sake. And I have absolutely no sympathy for this kid. None. He forfeited his right to sympathy when he ensured that his father would have to cut his own son down from the tree. Nothing he could have been through excuses such blatant, selfish cruelty toward the people who loved him.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but as someone who has stared long and hard at suicide many times and come away alive, I have very little patience for people who claim that a) I'm helpless to stop it or b) it's someone else's fault. Obviously the first is false, since I'm still here; as for the second, I know damn well whose fault it'd be if I killed myself, which is why I haven't.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 10:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:04 pm (UTC)From grade 6-12 I was harassed about being gay, and was beaten up several times because of it. I did consider suicide, and I do think that it's every persons right to decide if they want to live or die.
However, I also think that if this kid had decided to live past high school he could have in turn helped other kids by being an advocate. I take back what I said earlier, I think ultimately it's the school's fault for being so shitty in how they handle these things (or don't, as the case may be). While his death may very well help the school change, it also sends the message to other people that have been bullied that this is a very doable option for them. It kind of says that there is no hope for kids like this, rather than giving them other options. Like working with the school, getting counseling, taking self defense. Those things may never fix the problem, but they'll help people live through it.
Also, the bullies may have very real problems of their own with anti-social problems and personality behaviors. That's not to say it's excuseable, but the whole picture needs to be addressed with these things.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:06 pm (UTC)This boy had taken self-defense classes but refused to use martial arts against people. And working through the school... have you *tried* that recently?
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:14 pm (UTC)Yeah, I saw that, a lot of times people won't use it, but it can help people let their anger out in class.
As for suicide and major depression, I'm well aware of how someone feels. I'm BiPolar over here with numerous suicide attempts. However I also chose to get help, it took me about 18 years, and buckets full of tears but I did it. That's the message that bullied kids need, that they can fight through it, that they can survive. Suicide is always an option, but I still say it's not a good one and that it's one you decide. He may not be rational, he may not have picked that when he wasn't feeling depressed, but ultimately he did it. He isn't stupid or bad for doing it, but it's most likely against his best interests (in the long run).
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 08:50 pm (UTC)In grade school...
Date: 2004-12-06 09:05 pm (UTC)It hurts to think about those times where I wanted to end my own life. Right now, I'm only a junior. Its been 3 years since grade school and I'm happy as I can be, excluding teachers and the like. I'm like the boy in the article, as I keep in my anger and frustrations until I explode.
I have sympathy; I walked in his shoes. But I survived. It is a shame that bullying goes on. Bullying needs to stop. It's not just in schools; bullying occurs in work and many other aspects of life. I worked past my bullying, so it is possible for others to. By taking the "fun" out of bullying (I don't see any fun or true logic to it, other than exploitation), the bullies have to either find someone else, or just stop...in a perfect world.
I just realized I'm ranting, so I'll go away now.
Re: In grade school...
Date: 2004-12-06 09:38 pm (UTC)You're right about bullying outside of schools, but to admit that would be to admit that children emulate adults.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:32 pm (UTC)Also, one sentence I picked out of the article, which disturbed me (not the only thing in the article that I take issue with): "This is the stuff you hear about in Toronto schools, not in a small town" -- I wonder if this is a common idea? Speaking from personal experience, small towns may well be worse for bullying, because there's no escape from the bullies, or any chance for the victim to have friends outside of school.
(And hiya. I wander in here occasionally because your journal interests me, and had to comment on this.)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:37 pm (UTC)And yes, that is a common idea. I agree, it's erroneous. Small towns give you NO options. In the city, at least you can go somewhere else.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-11 04:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-07 02:32 am (UTC)there was a lecturer here who said that it's good to be bullied because it makes you stronger. it took all my self-control not to lash out at her. thankfully she's no longer at college.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-07 02:50 pm (UTC)Actually, that's not true in my experience...
Date: 2004-12-06 08:41 pm (UTC)No, what they do is deride the victim's never-quite-satisfactory efforts to fit in until the explosion happens.
Autobiographical evidence: in middle school I was mocked for not wearing makeup. Accordingly, I asked my parents for some and started wearing it in eighth grade. Now the topic of the mockery was not my lack of makeup but my inexpert application of it (since my mother didn't wear makeup either).
Re: Actually, that's not true in my experience...
Date: 2004-12-06 08:45 pm (UTC)The solution isn't to ask the victims to fit in, or to stop-gap the problem and say "bullying these people isn't right" (gays, blacks, people-who-don't-wear-makeup), it's to say "bullying is wrong, you intolerant jerks" and mean it.
Re: Actually, that's not true in my experience...
Date: 2004-12-06 08:54 pm (UTC)I've always wondered why high-school students, often less than a year away from legal adulthood, are permitted to get away with crap that in the Real World could result in charges being filed.
(Autobio. anecdote again: sophomore English class, teacher who marked you tardy if not seated when bell rang, I ran in at last second & was shoved by seated miscreant. Miscreant cried "tardy!", teacher said "not if she hadn't been pushed", end of matter. That's assault, is it not?)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 08:46 pm (UTC)That aside, I really think the problem is schools need to take these kinds of things more seriously. Bullies need harsher punishments and the people that were bullied need extra support and possibly school counseling to help them out.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 08:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 08:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 10:24 pm (UTC)With all due respect, I'm going to have to disagree. If I went out tomorrow and shot someone in the face, I couldn't blame it on the depression -- it'd still be my fault. Some mental illnesses erase your ability to discriminate between right and wrong, but depression isn't one of them. I am fully responsible for myself and my actions at all times no matter how depressed I happen to be.
I was bullied, too. I got called every name in the book -- homophobic, gynophobic, whatever. I was sexually harassed and assaulted (in a minor fashion) throughout much of middle school. When I was in third grade, some girls ganged up on me and stoned me, for Christ's sake. And I have absolutely no sympathy for this kid. None. He forfeited his right to sympathy when he ensured that his father would have to cut his own son down from the tree. Nothing he could have been through excuses such blatant, selfish cruelty toward the people who loved him.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but as someone who has stared long and hard at suicide many times and come away alive, I have very little patience for people who claim that a) I'm helpless to stop it or b) it's someone else's fault. Obviously the first is false, since I'm still here; as for the second, I know damn well whose fault it'd be if I killed myself, which is why I haven't.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 10:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:04 pm (UTC)From grade 6-12 I was harassed about being gay, and was beaten up several times because of it. I did consider suicide, and I do think that it's every persons right to decide if they want to live or die.
However, I also think that if this kid had decided to live past high school he could have in turn helped other kids by being an advocate. I take back what I said earlier, I think ultimately it's the school's fault for being so shitty in how they handle these things (or don't, as the case may be). While his death may very well help the school change, it also sends the message to other people that have been bullied that this is a very doable option for them. It kind of says that there is no hope for kids like this, rather than giving them other options. Like working with the school, getting counseling, taking self defense. Those things may never fix the problem, but they'll help people live through it.
Also, the bullies may have very real problems of their own with anti-social problems and personality behaviors. That's not to say it's excuseable, but the whole picture needs to be addressed with these things.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:06 pm (UTC)This boy had taken self-defense classes but refused to use martial arts against people. And working through the school... have you *tried* that recently?
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:14 pm (UTC)Yeah, I saw that, a lot of times people won't use it, but it can help people let their anger out in class.
As for suicide and major depression, I'm well aware of how someone feels. I'm BiPolar over here with numerous suicide attempts. However I also chose to get help, it took me about 18 years, and buckets full of tears but I did it. That's the message that bullied kids need, that they can fight through it, that they can survive. Suicide is always an option, but I still say it's not a good one and that it's one you decide. He may not be rational, he may not have picked that when he wasn't feeling depressed, but ultimately he did it. He isn't stupid or bad for doing it, but it's most likely against his best interests (in the long run).
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 08:50 pm (UTC)In grade school...
Date: 2004-12-06 09:05 pm (UTC)It hurts to think about those times where I wanted to end my own life. Right now, I'm only a junior. Its been 3 years since grade school and I'm happy as I can be, excluding teachers and the like. I'm like the boy in the article, as I keep in my anger and frustrations until I explode.
I have sympathy; I walked in his shoes. But I survived. It is a shame that bullying goes on. Bullying needs to stop. It's not just in schools; bullying occurs in work and many other aspects of life. I worked past my bullying, so it is possible for others to. By taking the "fun" out of bullying (I don't see any fun or true logic to it, other than exploitation), the bullies have to either find someone else, or just stop...in a perfect world.
I just realized I'm ranting, so I'll go away now.
Re: In grade school...
Date: 2004-12-06 09:38 pm (UTC)You're right about bullying outside of schools, but to admit that would be to admit that children emulate adults.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:32 pm (UTC)Also, one sentence I picked out of the article, which disturbed me (not the only thing in the article that I take issue with): "This is the stuff you hear about in Toronto schools, not in a small town" -- I wonder if this is a common idea? Speaking from personal experience, small towns may well be worse for bullying, because there's no escape from the bullies, or any chance for the victim to have friends outside of school.
(And hiya. I wander in here occasionally because your journal interests me, and had to comment on this.)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-06 09:37 pm (UTC)And yes, that is a common idea. I agree, it's erroneous. Small towns give you NO options. In the city, at least you can go somewhere else.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-11 04:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-07 02:32 am (UTC)there was a lecturer here who said that it's good to be bullied because it makes you stronger. it took all my self-control not to lash out at her. thankfully she's no longer at college.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-07 02:50 pm (UTC)