New question.

[conuly]

Is there any way for a state, or group of states, to secede from the union, legally and without creating a war? Because this country is fucking huge, and this means that a huge portion of the population is always going to feel under-represented. Instead of one huge nation, we could have 3-6 smaller ones.

Comments

[the-turtle-girl.livejournal.com]

Cool, when are we moving?

[conuly]

I think we'd have to use a lawsuit. And, of course, gain lots of political support.

Okay, does somebody have a map of the US, with political affiliations marked?

[anotheralice.livejournal.com]

I was curious about this as well. I mean, honestly -- isn't part of what's wrong with America is simply the fact that it's too friggin' huge? The culture is so *vastly* different in various portions of our nation-states. Granted, this is probably a rather unpopular opinion, but still. We *are* a divided nation. And it's incredibly difficult to manage a country that spans seven time zones. (In my little opinion.)

[conuly]

And nobody's tried it since the Civil War. We wouldn't have to do what they did then - we could do it legal-like.

[anotheralice.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I meant to say -- this is from the Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

[deceptica]

I think the problem isn't so much the size of the country, but the fact that there are currently only two parties that are of any importance.

Not always getting your way is part of a democracy, but if there are only two parties which directly oppose each other, losing the election not only means not getting your way, it means getting exactly the opposite of what you want.

I don't see how this issue would be resolved just by reducing the number of people. Unless you're also thinking of organizing a mass move and putting all Democrats into one part of the US, and all Republicans into the other.

[conuly]

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. The middle states? They all have the same interests. They can be one nation. Pacific coast? Same interests. That's another nation. Alaska? Gets to be a nation unto itself, same as Hawaii and Texas. Southern states also get to be a nation, leaving the north east as the last nation.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Exactly. And anyone who tries to move from the two party system is immediately attacked. I know I was for supporting Badnarik.

Then who was I supposed to support: no one at all, or the candidate of someone else's choice because they told me to?

[joeymew.livejournal.com]

I don't know much about how to go about it, but I really like your way of thinking. This country is too big. I feel no connection whatsoever to some bible thumper in Texas.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

...have you been reading the RSS feed of Moby's journal? :-p

moby_journal

[conuly]

No.

[georgiapeachy.livejournal.com]

Besides the South this has been tried many, many times. For example: the hundreds of mini-states that seceded from the Holy Roman Empire, Soviet Union etc. In my opinion it doesn't work. The more countries you have the more complicated it becomes and the more likely people will have static dogmatic opinions. Alexis de Tocqueville wrote about the "tyranny of the majority" in America, which makes democracy a mixed blessing. I think and others do too (http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041102-020033-6371r.htm) that our government could be reformed to create a better democracy without breaking up the nation. It would be difficult, but I'd rather not live in a country of all people with the same interests. That's just my opinion though.

[conuly]

It would be difficult, but I'd rather not live in a country of all people with the same interests.

Better than me having to live under Bush.

There are also many success stories of succession, most notably our own. The entire nation seceded from Britian, remember?

[davidkevin.livejournal.com]

The various member states of the Confederate States of America seceded from the United States of America through thoroughly legal means, by acts passed by their legislatures and signed by their governors. They were forced back through extra-legal means, i.e., war.

Afterward, what had been a federal union of several nations, the United States of America became one super-nation, the United States of America.

This is why in many parts of the south (more often to whites rather than blacks, I'm sure) what is known to mainstream historians as the American Civil War is instead called the War for Southern Independence or the War of Northern Aggression.

Robert A. Heinlein included a balkanized United States in one of his possible futures -- see his novel Friday.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

You said it probably better than I could, and I would add that the possibility of [legal] secession is supposedly one of the things that persuaded the southern colonies to sign the damned Constitution and articles of Federation.

hrmmm

[scottrossi.livejournal.com]

one successfully growing secessionist movement in our general area is the free state project.

www.freestateproject.org

i am a member, but have kinda fallen off the wagon of late, i am bleeding heart liberal treehugger rather than libertarian.

[the-turtle-girl.livejournal.com]

Cool, when are we moving?

[conuly]

I think we'd have to use a lawsuit. And, of course, gain lots of political support.

Okay, does somebody have a map of the US, with political affiliations marked?

[anotheralice.livejournal.com]

I was curious about this as well. I mean, honestly -- isn't part of what's wrong with America is simply the fact that it's too friggin' huge? The culture is so *vastly* different in various portions of our nation-states. Granted, this is probably a rather unpopular opinion, but still. We *are* a divided nation. And it's incredibly difficult to manage a country that spans seven time zones. (In my little opinion.)

[conuly]

And nobody's tried it since the Civil War. We wouldn't have to do what they did then - we could do it legal-like.

[deceptica]

I think the problem isn't so much the size of the country, but the fact that there are currently only two parties that are of any importance.

Not always getting your way is part of a democracy, but if there are only two parties which directly oppose each other, losing the election not only means not getting your way, it means getting exactly the opposite of what you want.

I don't see how this issue would be resolved just by reducing the number of people. Unless you're also thinking of organizing a mass move and putting all Democrats into one part of the US, and all Republicans into the other.

[conuly]

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. The middle states? They all have the same interests. They can be one nation. Pacific coast? Same interests. That's another nation. Alaska? Gets to be a nation unto itself, same as Hawaii and Texas. Southern states also get to be a nation, leaving the north east as the last nation.

[joeymew.livejournal.com]

I don't know much about how to go about it, but I really like your way of thinking. This country is too big. I feel no connection whatsoever to some bible thumper in Texas.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

...have you been reading the RSS feed of Moby's journal? :-p

moby_journal

[conuly]

No.

[georgiapeachy.livejournal.com]

Besides the South this has been tried many, many times. For example: the hundreds of mini-states that seceded from the Holy Roman Empire, Soviet Union etc. In my opinion it doesn't work. The more countries you have the more complicated it becomes and the more likely people will have static dogmatic opinions. Alexis de Tocqueville wrote about the "tyranny of the majority" in America, which makes democracy a mixed blessing. I think and others do too (http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041102-020033-6371r.htm) that our government could be reformed to create a better democracy without breaking up the nation. It would be difficult, but I'd rather not live in a country of all people with the same interests. That's just my opinion though.

[conuly]

It would be difficult, but I'd rather not live in a country of all people with the same interests.

Better than me having to live under Bush.

There are also many success stories of succession, most notably our own. The entire nation seceded from Britian, remember?

[davidkevin.livejournal.com]

The various member states of the Confederate States of America seceded from the United States of America through thoroughly legal means, by acts passed by their legislatures and signed by their governors. They were forced back through extra-legal means, i.e., war.

Afterward, what had been a federal union of several nations, the United States of America became one super-nation, the United States of America.

This is why in many parts of the south (more often to whites rather than blacks, I'm sure) what is known to mainstream historians as the American Civil War is instead called the War for Southern Independence or the War of Northern Aggression.

Robert A. Heinlein included a balkanized United States in one of his possible futures -- see his novel Friday.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

You said it probably better than I could, and I would add that the possibility of [legal] secession is supposedly one of the things that persuaded the southern colonies to sign the damned Constitution and articles of Federation.

hrmmm

[scottrossi.livejournal.com]

one successfully growing secessionist movement in our general area is the free state project.

www.freestateproject.org

i am a member, but have kinda fallen off the wagon of late, i am bleeding heart liberal treehugger rather than libertarian.