Anybody have any explanatory links?

[conuly]

As we all know - or anyway, as most of us know - words are capitalized like names if they're used like names and titles.

This most commonly applies to kinship terms, of course - "I gave a present to my mom" versus "When she opened her present, Mom cried" and "I have an uncle who is a firefighter" versus "You're a firefighter, aren't you, Uncle John?"

But there's a few people in the comments asserting that they've never seen this before, they would've been marked down at school, and so on.

It does boggle my mind somewhat that they, I guess, never read fiction in which people have parents, or else don't pay much attention when they do read, but I suppose not everybody is lucky enough to have been raised by a proofreader. However, what I'm posting about is that it's surprisingly difficult to find an authoritative source on this subject online.

The MW and Cambridge dictionary entries only cover this in the briefest way, without an explanatory note. I can't find a usage note by looking elsewhere at MW. I see people asserting that the AP and Chicago styles require this - but I can't actually access that, and searches on their respective websites go nowhere.

I can find lots of casual blogs and such discussing this in detail, but understandably people who think they already know are reluctant to accept correction from random sources like that. Can't quite blame them, though they're still very wrong. Or, I mean to say, they're out of step with the norms of Standard English orthography.

Does anybody have any source that's likely to be accepted? I don't even care about telling that handful of people at this point, I'm just annoyed at my inability to find a link on my own.

Comments

[hafnia]

That's weird, probably a sign of how Google has failed? I found one right away: https://www.grammarbook.com/blog/capitalization/kinship-names-to-capitalize-or-not-to-capitalize/

there's also this, which cites the Chicago Manual of Style: https://www.kirkusreviews.com/writers-center/editing/ask-our-editors-kinship-terms/

[conuly]

No, I found grammarbook. I just want to find something a little more authoritative. Something that we can guarantee they've at least previously heard of.

[bearshorty]

https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/capitalization/proper-nouns

I have an actual Dictionary of Style book at home that has this info, but finding it online is very tricky.

[conuly]

You're an absolute doll.

[conuly]

Oh, but that doesn't cover things like "Mom".

[calimac]

I used to have a copy of an old edition of Chicago around here somewhere, but I can't find it. However, in the MLA Style Manual 3rd ed. (not to be confused with the MLA Handbook, which is more popular these days), occurs the following item in a list of what's capitalized in English:

"titles that immediately precede personal names (President Wilson), but not persons' titles used alone (the president, a professor of English)"

And that's about as much as you're going to get.

The Google ngram viewer distinguishes between capitalized and uncapitalized spellings. So I searched "Uncle John" v. "uncle John" and discovered that the latter was more common up until 1840 at which time the former took over. Of course it doesn't distinguish between an uncapitalized "uncle John" being used as a title and a phrase like, e.g., "my uncle John."

[conuly]

Hm. You could kludge it a little by adding a preceding word like "when", couldn't you?

[redbird]

Never mind raised by a proofreader, did they never get a card or message signed "Love, Mom" or "Dad"?

Merriam-webster.com is unhelpful. The Wiktionary entry for "Mom" has it capitalized when used as a name, but it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone to point out that Wiki[whatever] isn't an authority. However, in case it's of interest: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mom

[calimac]

You could, but then you'd only be counting when that particular word was used.

[fox]

It appears to be CMOS 8.37 "Kinship Names and the Like," which I get a glimpse at from a search of the contents but I can't access either—

Some editorial discretion will be required. For example, mother and father and sister and brother do not normally form part...my father and mother the Brontë sisters I told my mom that this wouldn’t take long....Please, Mom, this will only take a minute. Our sister Clarice worked as an editor. (See also 6.31...

—I have a hard copy at work and can look up the whole section for you tomorrow if it would help. (Your interlocutors have taken leave of their senses.)

[conuly]

Well, my guess is they are all going to be embarrassed when they next see it in print.

[ethelmay]

CMOS Shop Talk is a good resource for this sort of thing. (ETA: link is specifically to the entry on Capitalizing Kinship Names and the Like.)

8.37 Kinship names and the like

[fox]

8.37 Kinship names and the like. A kinship name is usually lowercased unless it is used as part of a personal name or in place of a personal name. This usage extends to certain words that express a similar type of relationship. Some editorial discretion will be required. For example, mother and father and sister and brother do not normally form part of a name (except in certain religious contexts), whereas aunt and uncle often do; thus, both my sister Clarice and my Aunt Maud could be considered correct, even though, because they are preceded by my, neither sister Clarice nor Aunt Maud is being used in place of a name in those phrases. See also 8.21.

my father and mother
the Brontë sisters
I told my mom that this wouldn't take long.
Please, Mom, this will only take a minute.
Our sister Clarice worked as an editor. (See also 6.31.)
Hi, Sister! (Sister refers to an actual sibling; cf. brother in the last example.)
Her aunt, Maud Ramirez, agreed to watch their dogs.
You can always count on Aunt Maud.
I can't wait to see my Aunt Maud's reaction. (See introductory text.)
I believe my grandmother's middle name was Marie.
Where is Grandpa Smith?
My cousin Fred was late to the party.
Will Cousin Trini be there?
I called my daughter's coach.
Ask Coach Wilson.
You can count on me, Coach.
but
You can say that again, brother. (The word brother is being used figuratively.)

Kinship terms used in connection with religious offices or callings are treated similarly.

The note referred to a certain Brother Thomas, one of the brothers from the Franciscan monastery.

When a job title is used in lieu of a name, it is capitalized only if would also normally function as a title before a name.

Yes, Doctor, but will this hurt?
but
Hey, waiter, where's my order?

8.21 Exceptions to the general rule for titles and offices

[fox]

8.21 Exceptions to the general rule for titles and offices. In promotional or ceremonial contexts such as a displayed list of donors in the front matter of a book or a list of corporate officers in an annual report, titles are usually capitalized even when following a personal name. Exceptions may also be called for in other contexts for reasons of courtesy or diplomacy.

Maria Martinez, Director of International Sales

A title used alone, in place of a personal name, is capitalized only in such contexts as a toast or a formal introduction, or when used in direct address (see also 6.57, 8.37).

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Prime Minister. [I personally would not have capitalized "gentlemen" there and I'd have had a good think about capitalizing "prime minister" as well. -Fox]
I would have done it, Captain, but the ship was sinking.
Thank you, Mr. President.
but
We thanked the prime minister for her time.

6.31 Spousal and other relationship commas

[fox]

6.31 Spousal and other relationship commas. The rules for using commas in appositives as described in 6.30 often come up for sentences that specify the name of a spouse, partner, sibling, child, pet, or other relative or family member. When the name identifies the only one of its kind (as is generally the case with spouses but may not be the case for other types of relationships), commas would normally be required.

Desi's wife, Shondra, has a PhD. (Shondra is Desi's only wife.)
Shondra's brother, Dillon, rescued three dogs. (Dillon is Shondra's only brother.)
but
Dillon's dog Spot is a Dalmatian. (Dillon has more than one dog.)

Such commas may be omitted, however, when the number of spouses or siblings or dogs or whatever is either unknown or irrelevant. A comma may also be omitted when the tone is casual or conversational (as in dialogue) or to accommodate an author's creative preference for a less closely punctuated style (see 6.16).

Shondra's husband Desi is allergic to cats. (Readers will assume Shondra has only one husband, so the commas may be dropped in less formal registers.)
Desi's brother Cedric has never owned a pet. (Whether Desi has more than one brother is unknown or irrelevant.)

Commas should always be omitted to avoid an awkward possessive.

Desi's wife Shondra's cats are allergic to dogs.
not
Desi's wife, Shondra's, cats are allergic to dogs.

Finally, note that there are at least two instances in which commas are always used: (1) when the generic term is preceded by an adjective that uniquely identifies it and (2) when the name comes before the generic term.

Shondra's least friendly cat, Felix, has long hair.
Shondra, Desi's wife, loves cats.

[I have lost friends for pointing out this last item, specifically with respect to how there's no real way to reconcile what Sir Alec Guinness said in The Empire Strikes Back with what went on to happen in Episode 1 unless you do some more complicated origami (that may have been done by now in all the Clone Wars and Disney stuff, I have no idea), because "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me" can only have the commas as I've represented them and pretty much means that Yoda was Obi-Wan Kenobi's teacher, but in that case, whence Liam Neeson and Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn? Maybe if we ootch another comma in after "Master" and pretend Sir Alec said "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master, who instructed me . . ." (to get you to Dagobah by any means necessary and lie to you about who your father was and not mention that the only woman you've met in the last year and a half is actually your sister and)? . . . Anyway here we are. That was a long time ago and I for one still take commas very seriously indeed but fandom no longer really so much. 😄]

6.57 Commas with direct address (vocative commas).

[fox]

6.57 Commas with direct address (vocative commas). Names or words used in direct address are set off by a comma (or two in the middle of a sentence); this comma is known as a vocative comma.

Ms. Jones, please come in.
Kai, your order is ready.
Hello, Ms. Philips.
Hi, Pratchi. Please sit down.
Take that, you devil.
Kiss me, you fool.
Yes, ma'am!
Are you listening, class?
It's time to go, Marta.
I am not here, my friends, to discuss personalities.

When introduced by a coordinating conjunction, the comma preceding the name is optional. It may be retained in closely punctuated prose but omitted otherwise (see also 6.16; cf. 6.35).

But Jacob, we haven't even started yet.
or, more closely punctuated,
But, Jacob, we haven't even started yet.

In correspondence, a comma typically follows the greeting, though a colon (or sometimes a dash) may be used instead (especially in formal correspondence; see 6.70). If the name is preceded by Hello or another word of greeting rather than an adjective (like Dear), a comma may also precede the one being addressed. However, such commas are often omitted.

Dear Lucien, . . .
Greetings, Board Members: . . .
Hi, Ketanji, . . .
or, less formally,
Hi Ketanji, . . .

[fox]

(You don't care about 6.16, 6.30, 6.35, 6.70, or anything else that might say "see also" in those sections, so I'm stopping now. It's a wasteland of cross references about commas, when the original question was about what's a proper name and what's just a kinship term.)

Re: 6.31 Spousal and other relationship commas

[conuly]

Alternate hypothesis: Obi-Wan made a speech error, as is very common, and decided not to self-correct because whatever.

[low_delta]

I remember realizing this rule, and resolving to use it, but then after a while I realized how seldomly I write these words when they should be capitalized. Of course I don't write dialog.