Oh god people, please always remember:

[conuly]

Writing is not language.

Writing is writing. Language is language. Writing is used to record speech, but it's not language itself. You can be fluent in a language but not literate in that language.

In conclusion, writing isn't language, and if you're still confused, just meditate on this image a while.

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Comments

[alexseanchai]

I think I could argue with equal validity that speech isn't language and one can be fluent in a language without being able to understand many if any spoken words or speak understandably oneself

not sure what I'd argue language is if I'm arguing it's neither speech nor writing though

[acelightning73]

Written language is one way of transmitting meaning, so it does fulfil the function of language. I can't read (Indian) Devanagari script, but I sure can read the "Caution- Road Flooded Ahead" sign in English, Spanish, Italian, or French. (I probably ought to memorize useful road signs in various languages.)

[archersangel]

the 1178 BCE thing reminded me about this book; 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric H. Cline.

[conuly]

Communication is not the same as language either.

You may say that the road sign communicates a message, but a dog with bared teeth also is communicating a message, and that message is not being conveyed in language.

Go look at that image again until you understand why it is not a pipe.

[acelightning73]

I do know that a painting of a pipe is not a pipe. And a photo of that snarling dog won't bite me.

[conuly]

And a representation of spoken language is not language, in the same way that the representation of a pipe is not a pipe.

[bitterlawngnome]

When you say "writing" do you mean strictly orthography? Or do you mean the act of authoring?

[conuly]

Very much the former.

[bitterlawngnome]

I think it's a mix. Particularly in the formation of new words & grammar, acronyms being an example - written before they are spoken, generally. And languages like Latin and Sanskrit and classical Chinese and for a long time Hebrew, that continued to evolve in grammar and vocabulary despite no longer being spoken. And what about sign languages, neither spoken nor written?

[conuly]

First of all, you're making an arbitrary distinction between speaking and signing that doesn't exist, and secondly, you *can* write sign languages. There are multiple different writing systems for sign languages. Not that it matters, because that just proves my point - there are many languages that are not written down, because language and writing are not the same. Speech is something we learn to do naturally, we have to be *taught* to read and write. This is because writing is merely a *representation* of language. Writing is not, however, language.

And languages like Latin and Sanskrit and classical Chinese and for a long time Hebrew, that continued to evolve in grammar and vocabulary despite no longer being spoken.

Latin is still spoken today. I can go online and pull up the day's news in Latin any day I please. Hebrew, too, never actually stopped being a spoken language, which is why there's a difference between the pronunciations of different communities. Neither Latin nor Biblical Hebrew is anybody's first language - nor are Classical Chinese or Sanskrit - but that doesn't mean that people don't speak them.

[bitterlawngnome]

Well that's interesting! this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SignWriting? The deaf people I lived with just write sort of abbreviated English, it wasn't supposed to be a transcription.

[conuly]

It's the lingering effects of oralism at work. Even when d/Deaf kids are actually taught to speak a sign language - by no mean a guarantee even though, even with hearing aids and implants oralism is still a failure - people don't consider that they might benefit from being able to read and write in their own language. No, the goal is "normalcy".

[bitterlawngnome]

Makes sense, they would have been educated in the ~1960s in small town Ontario.

[conuly]

To my knowledge, the situation is not generally better today. Perhaps oralism is slightly less crippling due to cochlear implants, but those are not actually a cure-all.