Jenn and I have had a disagreement.

[conuly]

I have postdated this so she doesn't see it but also so I don't have to FLock it.

So we were watching TV and there's this whole plotline around eeeeeeeeevil voodoo with eeeeeeeeevil voodoo zombies (not the undead kind, except maybe) with a character who is literally called Baron Samedi. He is evil.

I say that makes it more racist. Her argument is that it's less racist because he's an actual figure in the actual real-world religion. We both agree that the storyline itself is racist as hell, because nearly all instances of voodoo in fiction are.

But is our dear Baron Samedi a mitigating or an aggravating factor here?

I'm right, right?

Comments

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[mme_n_b]

Neither more nor less racist, but more offensive to a specific religion.

Consider a similar case - making the bad woman in a book Jewish without a specific plot-necessary reason is anti-Semitic. Calling her Mary of Nazareth mother of Joshua does not make it more anti-Semitic, but does make it offensive to Christians.

Similarly, calling the bad guy here Baron Samedi does not make the book more offensive to, say, Ethiopian Jews, and is therefore not racist.

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[flamingsword]

But taking a religious figure out of Voudoun is cultural appropriation, which USians tend to only do from subjugated cultures, and IS therefore, more racist.

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[mme_n_b]

I do not know the cultural make-up of the writers in question, and therefore cannot agree that this is necessarily cultural appropriation.

I also cannot agree that all or most most followers of Voudoun are currently or have historically been (despite a large minority of Voudoun followers that were enslaved in the USA) subjugated by the USA, and therefore cannot agree that this is necessarily cultural appropriation of a subjugated culture.

I have a hard time equating culture with race (hence my use of Ethiopian Jews above, as a group that afaik shares race, but not culture, with most followers of Voudoun), and therefore cannot agree that cultural appropriation is necessarily racist.

TLDR: This is nasty, but it's not the kind of nasty you're calling it

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[alexseanchai]

quick history lesson: France colonized Haiti. Haiti revolted and freed themselves. France demanded absurd amounts of money in payment for the property Haiti thereby stole from them. Haiti agreed on the principle better free and poor than enslaved. Haiti finally finished paying off the ridiculously large sum a few centuries later, but that really was a ludicrous amount of Haitian wealth transferred to France over those few hundred years. Haiti is still very poor, because they spent most of the past few hundred years enriching France instead of enriching Haiti.

what was that about Haitian vodou practitioners not belonging to a marginalized culture?

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[mme_n_b]

Nothing. I said nothing "about Haitian vodou practitioners not belonging to a marginalized culture". What I said, specifically, is that MOST followers of Voudoun are not currently and have not historically been (despite a large minority of Voudoun followers that were enslaved in the USA) subjugated BY THE USA.

Quick history lesson: France and USA are different countries.

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[alexseanchai]

either you are saying it's only possible for some act to be cultural appropriation if it's the same thieves, not new thieves, or you missed my point.

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[mme_n_b]

I believe you missed mine. Seems unsatisfactory for both of us. Let's stop at the level we can reach together - where we agree that calling the bad guy Baron Samedi was a bad idea - and not probe deeper.

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[alexseanchai]

I mean, sure, you can not probe deeper, but I sincerely doubt I'm the only person who would like to know what your point actually was

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[mme_n_b]

I stated it clearly and included a TLDR for those who did not feel like reading the long version.

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[alexseanchai]

okay let me try again.

what does the difference between one colonial power and another have to do with when something is or isn't cultural appropriation? why is the difference between one colonial power and another relevant to the discussion at all?

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[mme_n_b]

I see. You missed the part where the person whom I was answering said, in support of their thesis, "cultural appropriation, which USians tend to only do from subjugated cultures". One of my three points was that this culture was not subjugated by the USA. Consider a similar case - a person of the US culture including Martha of Novgorod in their book. Would it be correct to say that they are appropriating from a subjugated culture? I would say no, despite the fact that the Russian culture has been often and thoroughly subjugated.

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[alexseanchai]

I mean how often do you see Eastern European characters of any description in English-language media as anyone but villains? or occasionally vampire protagonists. Russian culture is in a somewhat different position here than most Eastern European cultures because Russia has been a major player in world politics for the past several decades, but a white American with no Eastern European background publishing a novel about a Russian historical hero—and thereby likely ensuring that no Russian or Russian-American will get any novels about any Russian historical heroes published through the same major publishing house that year, and possibly for the next few years, and possibly not through any other major publishing house for the next few years, because one of those just got published—yeah, sounds like cultural appropriation to me.

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[mme_n_b]

"I mean how often do you see Eastern European characters of any description in English-language media as anyone but villains? "
Quite frequently, but we may be reading different books. My favorite is Justin Scott's Pride of Royals, I re-read it every time I need a good laugh and, for whatever reason, can't re-watch Anastasia.

"thereby likely ensuring that no Russian or Russian-American will get any novels about any Russian historical heroes published" I really don't care whether my novel about Russians is written by an American of Russian descent (ditto Jews) or not, as long as it's well-written, nor will I be diverted into discussing the degree to which one can or should fault a writer for a publisher's decision.

"sounds like cultural appropriation to me" You are missing pieces again. Do concentrate please, if you really want to talk about this. Is it cultural appropriation _of_a_subjugated_culture_?

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[alexseanchai]

You know more powerful cultures can steal from less powerful ones without necessarily first subjugating or ever having subjugated the less powerful cultures, right? Also that if one more powerful culture does damage to a given less powerful culture, that makes the latter an easier target for other powerful cultures, right?

Though if it is only cultural appropriation if the thieving culture stomped the stolen-from culture into the ground first, Americans appropriating from Haitian Vodou is very definitely cultural appropriation

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[mme_n_b]

"You know more powerful cultures can steal from less powerful ones without necessarily first subjugating or ever having subjugated the less powerful cultures, right? Also that if one more powerful culture does damage to a given less powerful culture, that makes the latter an easier target for other powerful cultures, right?"
I understand your point but do not consider it relevant _to_the_argument_I_was_answering_. You do not seem to be conscious of the difference. If I understand correctly, to you it does not matter whether the culture being appropriated from was subjugated at all, or by the culture of the putative appropriator. However, the argument I was answering depends on it.

I hope this helps. Thank you for your interest.

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[alexseanchai]

the argument you were answering doesn't depend on it, though? and if it does then that argument needs better supporting points, because the conclusion is correct but that supporting point is wrong

(frozen)

[mme_n_b]

It does indeed need better supporting points.

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[alexseanchai]

seriously though: thief waving red white and blue flag, thief waving red white and blue flag, potato, potato, as far as I can tell

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[mme_n_b]

I quite understand your point and cannot agree with it.

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[conuly]

This is a very long thread and I think you've both said all you're likely to say, so I'll just point out that the first person in this thread didn't spell out "subjugated by the USA" and freeze it.