As I said, a friend is reading Harry Potter for the first ever time

[conuly]

and it's making me have thoughts about that series again.

Lots of varied ones, most of which aren't worth delving into, but there is one question I'd like to see answered.

As we all know, Wizarding England is obsessed with two things: blood status* and Hogwarts House affiliation. I know, in school stories everything is a Big Deal and SO Important, but to carry over that attitude into adulthood, and late adulthood - well, that's something else.

Ever think that the muggleborns at Hogwarts get together and talk about the fact that wizards are super juvenile on this point? Like, they go to the mutual self-help society (because nobody else is helping them figure out the unwritten social rules of Wizards, such as they might be), pass around the popcorn, and start in on "Seriously, the gamekeeper was glaring at the first year Slytherins and declaring that they're all going to be evil. How would he even know that if it's true?" and "I heard two teachers arguing, and they kept calling each other house names. Geez, get over it, you're ancient!" or "My dormmate got a nasty letter from his parents because of where the Hat put him. That's crazy, right?"

* No, the good guys are manifestly not off the hook. The Weasleys have a cousin they don't even talk about because he's an accountant. Maybe if they talked to him, they'd find a way to manage their finances better. Maybe if all the wizards talked to accountants they wouldn't have to rely on Gringotts bank, and boy did I whoosh past that nasty little bit of stereotyping the first time around. Just didn't have the knowledge to grasp the context. Back to the Weasleys, that's there. That's right in the first book - "everybody knows we need muggleborn wizards or we'd die out, only bad sorts hate muggles, well, we do have a cousin we don't talk about because he's an accountant". It's there, and nobody ever calls Ron out on it! Not even the narration! It just sits there like a candy covered turd in a bag of M&Ms. Also, JKR, what's your deal with accountants? Is this an early sign of her well-documented phobia of math? (Maths.)

Comments

[brokenallbroken]

For a society obsessed with blood status, it doesn't seem to take many generations to be considered a pure blood. As far as I've ever been able to tell, it's either two magic parents, regardless of extraction, or four magical grandparents. Considering the IRL blood-obsessed societies such as the Nazis or the American South were counting back 7 generations (for Jewish ancestry) and had and applied words like "octoroons" (someone who was 1/8th Black), counting only back grandparents is very forgiving.

The Weasleys are in their own way as bad and any other pure bloods. Sure they say Muggles are alright, but they don't see them as people. Not just the Squib accountant cousin, but Mr. Weasley is totally fine with the campground owners being Oblivated every five minutes even though it clearly affects their cognition (GoF), and of course all the abuses he and the twins heap on the Dursleys. And when he praises Muggle ingenuity, Mr. Weasley sounds more like he's talking about a child that has surprised him with their cleverness than equals capable of thinking for themselves. The way Molly talks about Muggles the first time we see her on PLatform 9 3/4? Yikes.

The more JKR talks on Twitter, the more certain I am she thinks the Weasleys really do like and respect Muggles, not that she was intentionally painting a nuanced portrait of how prejudice manifests among the "woke".

I guess if there's only one high school in the country it takes on an outsized importance later in life than it would if everyone went to university and possibly moved somewhere else. Adult Wizarding Britain is just a continuation of Hogwarts because there is nothing else to influence the culture or pressure it to change.

[conuly]

1. Yes, but here I think we're bumping up into math again. We're expecting the same woman who can't multiply 40 by 7 and get a number more accurate than "about a thousand" to handle fractions into the 8ths.

2. Oh, god, the campground owners. Okay, obviously the Wizengamot could not have predicted that some rogue Death Eaters were gonna stage a drunken afterparty of their own. But they certainly could have predicted that Wizards are shit at pretending to be Muggle! Instead of a bajillion obliviations - which no doubt got worse in quality as the wizards got more and more fatigued and bored with the job - why not one very carefully targeted bit of mind control before the World Cup - say, something convincing the campground owner that he really should take this all-expenses paid vacation he won and leave the campground in the hands of this helpful young couple that just showed up needing some temporary work and housing. (That couple could be played by some young first generation wizards, who presumably could act like convincing Muggles, or by squibs or other relatives of wizards.) The vacation to wherever would be a hell of a lot cheaper than paying people to keep wiping this family's memories! A little bit of planning could've saved a world of trouble. At the very least they could've convinced him he was hosting some sort of fan event or something that required funny costumes and bad fake accents. Then he wouldn't've been so weirded out by all the reservations and would have had a convenient answer for all this besides "magic". (Not that this is anybody's first response, but still.)

3. I think that "Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Britain" is one of the things we just have to toss out. The only in-canon evidence for this is Hagrid saying it (Hagrid also says all dark wizards come from Slytherin, and he knows that's not true, he has deep personal awareness that it's not true), Ron vaguely saying that he knew other schools existed somewhere maybe, and Hermione stating there are three wizarding schools in England. But one school of 300 students, or even 1000-ish students, does not provide the wizarding world with enough of a population to support the complex infrastructure we know it has. No, I think we have to assume that this is somewhat hyperbolic, that Hogwarts is the best or most prestigious school in Britain, that the three schools in Europe are in fact simply the three oldest and most respected schools in Europe, that Hagrid and Ron are a bit dim, and that JKR threw up her hands at this tricky bit of worldbuilding and said "oh dear, maths". (I shouldn't snark, I think there's a good chance that her unwillingness to even attempt simple arithmetic is connected to an actual disability, but it's easy to snark sometimes.)

4. The writing in these books is a lot better if you assume JKR does in fact know how it looks and did that on purpose. I mean, I agree that she mostly doesn't and didn't, but still.

[conuly]

2a. Also, I maintain that Draco was, in his conflicted and plausibly deniable way, attempting to give the trio some useful advice so his classmates, especially including Granger, would not be injured at the hands of his father or anybody else, at least not until the end of the school year. He didn't have to remind his hotheaded "buddies" that people who were spinning muggle children in the air would hardly scruple not to harm muggleborn students at Hogwarts.

But then, I've always had a soft spot for woobie, conflicted, marginally more self-aware than he seems Draco.

[brokenallbroken]

The only wizards we have ever seen with any planning ability are Severus and Dumbledore. And whichever one of the Crouches came up with the jailbreak idea. Lucius comes pretty close in CoS, but it's clear forethought is not common among the Wizarding population.

I wonder how much of Wizarding fecklessness in general is a result of most consequences being reversible.

Wizard demographics have never made any sense. I agree there must be smaller schools somewhere. Hermione said Hogwarts was the best magic school in Britain, not Europe. But somewhere along the way JKR decided she didn't like writing Quidditch, and didn't want to deal with away games for a school team on top of house games. She has also said (and it shows) that she never re-reads her work once it's published; she may have simply forgotten she said it.

I think Jo accidentally wrote much different books than she thought she did. There is always such a profound gap between her show and tell, and not all of it can be written off as Harry being an unreliable and severely biased narrator.

[brokenallbroken]

Given his low-key attempts at sabotaging the Death Eaters in DH, especially during the Easter imprisonment episode at Malfoy Manor, I agree Draco was trying to steer the trio clear enough of danger their fate could stay off his conscience. I mean, he reached out to Harry in Madame Malkins in PS/SS, however ham-fistedly, without ascertaining his blood status first. There's a semi-decent person in there when he's not trying to impress Lucius.

[conuly]

On the subject of Draco's relationship with dear old dad: Lucius Malfoy, that day in Knockturn - sign he's a bad parent, or sign that he's stressed and in a pissy mood?

[conuly]

IDK, Voldemort is pretty good about timing all his assassination attempts of Harry for the end of the school year, a feat which is both considerate and shows an admirable attention to detail, even during that year in which Harry doesn't attend school.

But somewhere along the way JKR decided she didn't like writing Quidditch, and didn't want to deal with away games for a school team on top of house games.

I don't blame her, but she could've more plausibly had Harry decide to step down from the team to focus his studies or because he's sick of the "winning's not the best thing, it's the only thing" attitude that Oliver Wood consumes for breakfast.

I think Jo accidentally wrote much different books than she thought she did. There is always such a profound gap between her show and tell, and not all of it can be written off as Harry being an unreliable and severely biased narrator.

Like all the disused classrooms conveniently located around every corner of Hogwarts, which certainly lends a great deal of credence to the idea that Hogwarts was designed to accommodate many more students than it currently does. That's a small example, but I quite agree.

[brokenallbroken]

Probably a little bit of both. I don't think he's abusive, but undemonstrative with high standards. He comes off as a parvenu compared to Narcissa, so he still has that middle class fixation on behavioral dignity that the upper classes don't need to give a fuck about. A real aristo wouldn't feel the least inhibited about his right to touch everything. Then again, they were in a place filled with super-dangerous (or potentially so) stuff, and Draco wasn't following safety rules, which he should be able to do at 12. He earned that scolding and rap on the knuckles.

[brokenallbroken]

I've just about given up Watsonian analysis of the series. The world building is too thin and inconsistent to get far with it.

[(Anonymous)]

Ever think that the muggleborns at Hogwarts get together and talk about the fact that wizards are super juvenile on this point?

Hahaha, next thing you'll be saying is that MIT dorms and Harvard houses don't matter. /anon because I don't want to admit to knowing this (and also still believing it!)

[conuly]

Honestly? I think it's more fun that way. Don't get me wrong, a carefully plotted book is a joy, but there is nothing better than exploiting the bugs.

[conuly]

Which do you still believe, that they do or that they don't?

[ayebydan]

1000000% this and everything in the comments too. Boarding school cliches to the hilt was Potter.

[pensnest]

And, boarding school clichés from someone who never went to boarding school. JR Rowling probably read the same 'School' books that I did (all of which could be subtitled, Girls have adventures at boarding school), and the first couple of Harry Potter books are definitely in the same vein.

But I actually went to boarding school, and Hogwarts is *horrifying*! There isn't a set quiet time for doing homework, there's no apparent organisation for everyday things (maybe sheets are changed by magic, I suppose) and children are allowed to wander about without anybody in authority having a clue where they are, even though the environs are full of danger—a lake! a sinister forest! a tree that actually attacks people! It really wouldn't have taken a lot of thought to include some simple, logical daily routines, and would have made Hogwarts a more believable place.

I think, though, that JKR got the idea for the first HP book and just wrote it, grabbing for a convenient magical something wherever one was needed. It totally feels like a 'School' book, and reality isn't a necessary feature of those.

When she started getting into Bigger Stuff, though, she really needed to figure out how this world worked. It's a bit like the Star Trek universe, you can make it work if you want to, but don't let a smidgin of logic in if you want to work in that universe.

[conuly]

Sheets are changed by house elves, who presumably use their house elf surveillance to know when the dorms are empty - god, that IS horrifying.

children are allowed to wander about without anybody in authority having a clue where they are, even though the environs are full of danger—a lake! a sinister forest! a tree that actually attacks people! It really wouldn't have taken a lot of thought to include some simple, logical daily routines, and would have made Hogwarts a more believable place.

Literally nobody at Hogwarts thinks anything is wrong with the fact that Neville's uncle dropped him out a window to see if he would bounce. The Weasleys know that the Dursleys kept Harry locked in his room, they don't seem to think there's any need to step in over that either. (Well, the kids at least rescued him, but nobody seems to have objected when he went back next summer.) Not one single eyebrow is raised over Harry losing all the bones in his arm second year, other than to criticize Lockheart's ineptitude.

Either the wizarding world figures that kids all bounce (literally), or they're actively trying to weed out the weak, but I just don't think they have any concept of child safety regulations. Perhaps that's another newfangled Muggle invention, like ballpoint pens, that hasn't quite caught on yet.

It's a bit like the Star Trek universe, you can make it work if you want to, but don't let a smidgin of logic in if you want to work in that universe.

Gasp! What about the Vulcans!?

[schneefink]

Yes, all of that. I'm planning to reread several HP books soon for a fic I want to write, but I'm worried that all the huge worldbuilding holes will bother me much more on a reread.

[hilarita]

One of the reasons you might still obsess over your school as an adult is precisely because it's a boarding school. I was only ever a weekly boarder, but I spent time at schools where pupils spent more than half the year there, and it's very different. For months at a time, your parents are only accessible by letter (or ten minutes on the phone - obviously this was before mobiles were prevalent). Your school is very literally in loco parentis - and the school is providing most of your formative experiences - your lessons, your activities. In the holidays, maybe you get to go abroad and see some museums, play some quidditch, and hope that you see someone your own age, because all your mates are hundreds of miles away, unless you happen to live in a wizarding community. It's not at all surprising that you imprint on the school, because you don't have much else.

[landofnowhere]

Harvard house assignments have been randomized since the mid '90s, so the primary difference is convenience to campus/athletic facilities/other dorms (and also I heard that the houses that once housed Slytherins still have larger social budgets due to alumni donations). There are some house stereotypes that have at least a bit of validity, but much less than they used to, though I'm sure some students are still immature and make too big a deal of them.

MIT dorms have much larger cultural differences, because there's much more self-selection.

[pensnest]

Vulcans? Highly improbable. :-D

[chelseagirl]

That's weird, since it's later established that Ron's father is fascinated by Muggle technology. Perhaps she dropped the line before she realized she was going that way? (I have not reread the books in quite a long time, so I don't recall the order in which many of the things happen.)

[(Anonymous)]

Gringotts is pretty blatant anti-semitism to my grown up eyes :(

[sabotabby]

Haha, good points.

The "1/4 of the child population is destined to become evil" is, to me, one of the worst things about the series, even with fannish revisionism about Slytherins. The thing is, I can see it working in two ways. One is an overt acknowledgment of how fucked up Wizarding society is and a real commitment to change at the end (and at least some Slytherin characters who consciously fight against their stereotype). The other is a parallel to the theory that 20-30% of the population is fascist no matter what, and Wizarding England is trying to rein in and redirect that evil.

But she doesn't go there.

The Gringotts stuff is absolutely vile.

[conuly]

The fact that Albus Severus* is worrying so much about it in the epilogue is proof that that charming bit of toxicity is still alive and well, even if Harry reassures him.

And yes, argh, Gringotts.

* That name alone ought to be justification for a child services call.

[conuly]

I see it now, was a bit more ignorant as a child.

[conuly]

Fascinated in an extremely patronizing way. And you'll note he keeps his stuff out in the shed.