Well, I've found this week's most clueless comment ever

[conuly]

In response to "Stop using gypsy, it's a slur" round 1,000:

The same people that suddenly decided that a word that has been acceptable for generations is suddenly determined to be a "slur". Try referring to that word as a slur in Ireland, Scotland, Spain, France or Portugal and see what results you get.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to take the opinions of people in an area that's a hotbed of virulent anti-Roma prejudice. Uh-huh.

I have no idea, btw, why people are so freaking attached to this word. If we exclude it from proper names*, the number of times I've ever had to use it and not saying "yeah, don't use this word" can be counted on one hand.

* People give themselves and their children and their pets all sorts of inappropriate names. When you know better, you do better - well, unless you'd rather whine about it.

Comments

[thornsilver]

Yes, some people used slurs for generations. That doesn't say anything *good* about those people. Nothing is "suddenly a slur".

*sigh*

Some people is why we can't have good things.

[conuly]

It can be a little tricky in the US because in response to this particular word, many people aren't aware that we're talking about 1. an ethnic group (not a lifestyle or a fashion choice) that 2. actually exists and wasn't made up, like magical fairies. And even if they know of those two points, they might not realize that the bigotry and discrimination is ongoing. So it's not something they've ever had cause to think about.

So I can understand taking a little while to come to terms with those facts. But then, c'mon, get over yourself!

[spikethemuffin]

So... their logic is, "Because you didn't tell me it was rude yesterday, and because your cousin in another country might not find it grating (although I didn't ask), you can't say it's something that makes you unhappy today"?

Um. With that logic, I'm happy to be on your side.

Call me a curmudgeon, but what these youngsters call "political correctness," we used to call "common courtesy." Don't call people rude, hurtful, or dismissive/ dehumanizing names, and you're not the one who decides what is hurtful for anyone but you.

Ramble about WWII airplanes and that one song by Cher redacted for your comfort and convenience.

[conuly]

Call me a curmudgeon, but what these youngsters call "political correctness," we used to call "common courtesy." Don't call people rude, hurtful, or dismissive/ dehumanizing names, and you're not the one who decides what is hurtful for anyone but you.

Agreed.

[calimac]

To be fair, I think part of their logic is "Because you didn't tell me it was rude yesterday, it's unfair to criticize me for using it yesterday."

But that can be negated by 1) "I'm not criticizing you for using it yesterday, I'm informing you that you shouldn't use it in the future" (assuming it is phrased that way), and 2) "Actually, it's been generally known to be rude for a long time. Did you miss that?"

[jessie_c]

It's not the 'youngsters' who moan about "political correctness". It's the bigots who don't want their bigotry to end so they complain about their bigotry being called out and try to make "political correctness" sound worse than their bigotry.

[cosmolinguist]

Plus, people in the UK and Ireland will tell you that it's a slur. (Not all the people, admittedly (and sadly), but this person cannot get away with saying that the word is fine in all the other countries its used in. Because it's really not.

[conuly]

Thank you!

[merridia]

It took me aaaaages to convince my mom (who is usually pretty reasonable about these things!) to stop referring to her vehicle as her 'gypsy van' because she just loved the phrase/image it conjured so much and it made her sad not to. There's just something about that word, it's SUCH a weird hill to die on.

I blame Cher, I'm still trying to figure out a decent substitute for the word in Dark Lady that doesn't mess up the flow for karaoke purposes.

[conuly]

And here, if I heard somebody refer to their vehicle as a "gypsy van" I'd think they meant it was an unlicensed taxi. You know, you have some free time so you sit in the nearest supermarket parking lot the day before Thanksgiving and drive people home on the cheap, or you drive close to the bus stop and pick up anybody who's tired of waiting for the bus and drop them off at the ferry.

I don't actually have another term for those, but there's got to be one. Maybe "dollar van"? IDK.

[flamingsword]

"Boho" as short for Bohemian can do a lot of heavy lifting for g****, if the context is correct?

[offcntr]

If I'm remembering the Cher song correctly, the refrain is pointing out that it is a slur, along with "tramps and thieves." It's just that it's so damn catchy.

...and now I have my ear worm for the day.

[agoodwinsmith]

I think the Cher song can stay, because the word is not being used in a romantisized way - in the song it is being used as a slur. It's a sad story of marginalization and hypocrisy. The people who use the slur are depicted as wrong.

Somewhere in the 70's there was a "gypsy chic" even though I don't think it was ever called that in print. Stevie Nicks, glorious as she is, is one of the perpetuators. And that's all tied in with the earth mother magic woman powerful seductress wise crone blah de blah de blah. Loss of that myth constellation is loss of youth. You won't like it when it happens to you. You will also be surprised at some of the things you love that will be revealed as problematic.

Vinegar vs honey, yes/no?

[conuly]

Somebody shoot me if I choose to move from "I'm surprised and a little unhappy" to stubbornness and recalcitrance.

[eva_rosen]

It also shows up in Leonard Cohen's 'So Long Marianne', though only once ('I used to think I was some kind of gypsy boy').

(frozen)

[pink_halen]

Those referred to as Gypsies are from Romania among other places but have genetic origins in India.

The Romanian Language is not a Slavic language like the countries that surround Romania but is more akin to Spanish. It is a romance language with roots in Latin.

The name Gypsy is a corruption of Egyptian because of a mistaken belief in the middle ages that they were itinerants from Egypt expelled from Egypt for crimes against Jesus.

(frozen)

[siderea]

...Why are you lecturing? Was there some reason you assumed people didn't know the information you chose to impart? Did someone indicate they wanted information about this topic? Or did you just feel a lamentable ignorance was on display and in want of correction?

[jesuswasbatman]

Yeah, in a lot of the UK it will be recognised as a slur.

On the other hand, Randall Blythe, in his memoir of the time he spent in jail in Prague, insists that Roma people he was banged up with used it to him as a self-identification in English.

[nostalgia]

I am confused sometimes because it appears to be the Scottish government's preferred term and I *assume* they consulted Roma people before doing that but they might well not have?

And I've heard it used to self-identify (mostly for profit in Blackpool as Fortune Tellers so those people may not even be Roma) but then I hear "Indian" is used by a lot of Native Americans and that's still not the go-to term for people outside the group to use.

So these days I try to avoid it in case it's a slur even if I'm not always sure it's a slur in X or Y country. Basic politeness and all that.

[low_delta]

You don't use "Gypsy" to refer to the Roma people, because that's not their name.

You don't use the word "gyp" because that's an association between the Romas and a bad reputation.

But I have trouble with complaints about other usage of "gypsy." It's not a slur unless you use it pejoratively. Like, based on some discussion here, it sounds like in some parts of the world it is *only* used pejoratively. But you already can't call Roma "Gypsies" (see rule #1). So we're left with cases like, "Are you a thief, are you some kind of Gypsy?" I guess it could happen, but how common is this?

I never hear "gypsy" used except in the sense of freedom. Being nomadic, for example. This is not a slur! That's the wrong explanation to try to convince someone not to use the word in this sense. What is the right explanation?

[conuly]

The sense of freedom is 100% a result to a stereotype of that particular ethnic group. No matter whether it's being used positively or negatively, you're still using a term to refer to a stereotype. That's why it's offensive, even if you're not talking specifically about them.

[veryrarelystable]

The word is used not only for Roma people, but also for other Traveller groups. And this creates difficulties for me.

Background: My father was adopted (and very fortunate in his adoptive family by the standards of 1950s New Zealand). In 2008 his birth mother came looking for him; she was in her eighties and I think she intuited, correctly as it turned out, that she wasn't going to get another chance to find out what had happened to her son.

My father's genetic father had been married to her but she had divorced him, hence why she adopted her baby out, that being what was expected of unwed mothers at the time, and I gather he died around the time I was born in the late 1970s.

Here comes the difficult bit: According to my father's birth mother, he was ethnically a "Gypsy".

I don't know whether she meant "Roma" or some other Traveller ethnicity, and I can't ask her because she died not long after making this one contact. I don't think her other children (my father's genetic sisters) know either.

When I asked a Roma person on Tumblr (back when I had a Tumblr, and the issue came up) what would be an appropriate way to talk about my genetic grandfather, they suggested I should refer to him as a "traveller", small T. Problem is... as far as I know he didn't travel all that much. My genetic grandmother had been referring to his ethnic background, not his lifestyle.

So... yeah. I don't know how to talk about my own family.

[ayebydan]

I guess the answer might be to delve into the history of travelers and Roma in NZ. Try to find what is likely your background. Whites who followed a nomadic existence as such or Roma. I guess the birth place of the grandmother that tried to get in touch might also offer hints? Or you could use traveler/roma and if anyone asks explain you're not entierly sure on the details.

[sabotabby]

It's difficult because it appears so casually—it's the name of a mecha in the otherwise very progressive Pacific Rim, for example. And it's also challenging to exclude from media where the audience may not know the term Roma.

Just because it's difficult to purge from the language doesn't mean that it's not a fucking vile slur that should be purged from the language with extreme prejudice. (I will make exceptions, as with other ethnic slurs, for historical fiction, as long as it's not used gratuitously, and decisions of people within that ethnic group to self-identify as such if they decide to.)

[nicki]

Having spent quite a bit of time in Europe, I would say it's a worse slur in Europe than in the US, even if they don't realize it. The stereotype of shiftless thief and grifter, poor, dirty, beggar is much much stronger than the artistic free spirit one in Europe whereas the reverse it true in the US (in my experience) where the stereotype is much more the colorful artistic free spirit than the other.

[conuly]

I suspect this is because in the US we just don't have as many of them, to the point where a large number of people either don't realize we're talking about an ethnic group at all or think that they're somehow fictional.

[landofnowhere]

The winner of the Halloween costume contest at work was dressed up in a costume that I don't have other words to describe. I mean, I wouldn't say she was dressed up as a Roma, just as the American cultural stereotype. Which is certainly problematic, since these stereotypes erase the reality (though apparently other people were less bothered, as she got the most applause).

But mostly I don't have a reason to use the word, and don't have a problem with avoiding it.

[conuly]

I suppose you could say "traveling fortune teller", but that's not really better, that's just describing the stereotype.

[silveradept]

I think its hard to get rid of the stereotype and the slur because a lot of people don't have an alternative word for the stereotype they are envisioning when they hear the word. No other ethnic group has the same construction) combination of dark skin, nomadic lifestyle and presumed exoticness. That doesn't also have a history of being oppressed and seen as subhuman, anyway.

[conuly]

Psst - they also have a history of being oppressed and being seen as subhuman.

[ayebydan]

Mmm, this one is hard for me. For me g*psy is a slur and should not be used. But when I was at the SNP (largest party in Scotland and sends more MPs to West Minster than any other Scottish party) conference that people/group came forward with a motion and they called themselves 'the Gypsy and Traveler' community. It is how they asked to be known. (They won their resolution btw which was to get health cards saying they were from that community and could therefore get health care at any health center in the country without needing to be resident there. Again the idea of them having an ID made me feel uneasy but it was to their request)

I am cautious of several things though. Is this a movement of mostly white people who have not got the same history of persecution their coloured national siblings have? Will this system be used against them by a shadier government/party even if they asked for it? Can/should one group be overruled in their opinion of a word because internationally others consider it a slur. I don't know if the group here are trying to reclaim it in a similar way the gay community took back queer.

They are on committees here. Their people spoke at conference and those who spoke in favour for them were chosen by the community to be the non-community speakers.

I'm not saying we treat this group well in Scotland. We really don't but I wanted to share this info on what they said for themselves.

[dandelion.livejournal.com]

Re: terminology...I didn't think you could call ours Roma, since they aren't Roma.

[conuly]

Yes, I see that point, but I didn't want to say "anti-gypsy" while actually saying not to use that term, and I think not enough people know the term antiziganism, so I just grabbed one word and hoped for the best. (I also worried that listing all groups covered under that term would lead to me leaving one out.)