Well, I've found this week's most clueless comment ever

[conuly]

In response to "Stop using gypsy, it's a slur" round 1,000:

The same people that suddenly decided that a word that has been acceptable for generations is suddenly determined to be a "slur". Try referring to that word as a slur in Ireland, Scotland, Spain, France or Portugal and see what results you get.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to take the opinions of people in an area that's a hotbed of virulent anti-Roma prejudice. Uh-huh.

I have no idea, btw, why people are so freaking attached to this word. If we exclude it from proper names*, the number of times I've ever had to use it and not saying "yeah, don't use this word" can be counted on one hand.

* People give themselves and their children and their pets all sorts of inappropriate names. When you know better, you do better - well, unless you'd rather whine about it.

Comments

[thornsilver]

Yes, some people used slurs for generations. That doesn't say anything *good* about those people. Nothing is "suddenly a slur".

*sigh*

Some people is why we can't have good things.

[conuly]

It can be a little tricky in the US because in response to this particular word, many people aren't aware that we're talking about 1. an ethnic group (not a lifestyle or a fashion choice) that 2. actually exists and wasn't made up, like magical fairies. And even if they know of those two points, they might not realize that the bigotry and discrimination is ongoing. So it's not something they've ever had cause to think about.

So I can understand taking a little while to come to terms with those facts. But then, c'mon, get over yourself!

[spikethemuffin]

So... their logic is, "Because you didn't tell me it was rude yesterday, and because your cousin in another country might not find it grating (although I didn't ask), you can't say it's something that makes you unhappy today"?

Um. With that logic, I'm happy to be on your side.

Call me a curmudgeon, but what these youngsters call "political correctness," we used to call "common courtesy." Don't call people rude, hurtful, or dismissive/ dehumanizing names, and you're not the one who decides what is hurtful for anyone but you.

Ramble about WWII airplanes and that one song by Cher redacted for your comfort and convenience.

[conuly]

Call me a curmudgeon, but what these youngsters call "political correctness," we used to call "common courtesy." Don't call people rude, hurtful, or dismissive/ dehumanizing names, and you're not the one who decides what is hurtful for anyone but you.

Agreed.

[cosmolinguist]

Plus, people in the UK and Ireland will tell you that it's a slur. (Not all the people, admittedly (and sadly), but this person cannot get away with saying that the word is fine in all the other countries its used in. Because it's really not.

[merridia]

It took me aaaaages to convince my mom (who is usually pretty reasonable about these things!) to stop referring to her vehicle as her 'gypsy van' because she just loved the phrase/image it conjured so much and it made her sad not to. There's just something about that word, it's SUCH a weird hill to die on.

I blame Cher, I'm still trying to figure out a decent substitute for the word in Dark Lady that doesn't mess up the flow for karaoke purposes.

[conuly]

Thank you!

[conuly]

And here, if I heard somebody refer to their vehicle as a "gypsy van" I'd think they meant it was an unlicensed taxi. You know, you have some free time so you sit in the nearest supermarket parking lot the day before Thanksgiving and drive people home on the cheap, or you drive close to the bus stop and pick up anybody who's tired of waiting for the bus and drop them off at the ferry.

I don't actually have another term for those, but there's got to be one. Maybe "dollar van"? IDK.

[offcntr]

If I'm remembering the Cher song correctly, the refrain is pointing out that it is a slur, along with "tramps and thieves." It's just that it's so damn catchy.

...and now I have my ear worm for the day.

[agoodwinsmith]

I think the Cher song can stay, because the word is not being used in a romantisized way - in the song it is being used as a slur. It's a sad story of marginalization and hypocrisy. The people who use the slur are depicted as wrong.

Somewhere in the 70's there was a "gypsy chic" even though I don't think it was ever called that in print. Stevie Nicks, glorious as she is, is one of the perpetuators. And that's all tied in with the earth mother magic woman powerful seductress wise crone blah de blah de blah. Loss of that myth constellation is loss of youth. You won't like it when it happens to you. You will also be surprised at some of the things you love that will be revealed as problematic.

Vinegar vs honey, yes/no?

[conuly]

Somebody shoot me if I choose to move from "I'm surprised and a little unhappy" to stubbornness and recalcitrance.

[moon_custafer]

If the idea is that it’s an unlicensed, freelance taxi, could “wildcat van” or “wildcat taxi” work? Like wildcat banks or wildcat strikes?

[musesfool]

Yeah, I and some friends of mine have been known to call those unlicensed taxis the "dollar cabs."

[eva_rosen]

It also shows up in Leonard Cohen's 'So Long Marianne', though only once ('I used to think I was some kind of gypsy boy').

(frozen)

[pink_halen]

Those referred to as Gypsies are from Romania among other places but have genetic origins in India.

The Romanian Language is not a Slavic language like the countries that surround Romania but is more akin to Spanish. It is a romance language with roots in Latin.

The name Gypsy is a corruption of Egyptian because of a mistaken belief in the middle ages that they were itinerants from Egypt expelled from Egypt for crimes against Jesus.

[jesuswasbatman]

Yeah, in a lot of the UK it will be recognised as a slur.

On the other hand, Randall Blythe, in his memoir of the time he spent in jail in Prague, insists that Roma people he was banged up with used it to him as a self-identification in English.

(frozen)

[siderea]

...Why are you lecturing? Was there some reason you assumed people didn't know the information you chose to impart? Did someone indicate they wanted information about this topic? Or did you just feel a lamentable ignorance was on display and in want of correction?

[siderea]

Okay, so. This is way, way bigger than Stevie Nicks.

The stereotype of "gypsies" is that they are criminals, yes, but also it has a "positive" side that imagines "gypsies" as free from rules and constraints, from being tied down by obligations and a sense of belonging in one place. Stereotypes of criminality are often romanticised for the ids of the stereotypers, q.v. "thug life", the mafia, pirates, etc.

So there's a huge history of the idea of "gypsy" representing someone being free-spirited, footloose, not-tie-downable, and passionate/sexual. It's not, btw, limited to the US or even the English speaking world. The word for "gypsie" in Spanish is "Gitano". Wasn't that a brand of jeans? Anways, it shows up plenty in Latin American pop music. Here, have a matched set: Spanish and English. 2010. Between the two of them, about 160 million views.

I think the vast majority of Americans who personally resonate with the archetype have no idea that it's predicated on a really ugly racial/ethnic stereotype of an actively as well as historically persecuted minority. That archetype is hugely emotionally important to them, and when you try to take it away from them, they react poorly.

I'm at a total loss what to do about this, because while the right thing may be to just demand people give up this usage, it will not work and will result in an incredible backlash. And there doesn't seem to be an obvious substitute.

(frozen)

[veryrarelystable]

The word for the people is "Roma" or "Romani", which despite the coincidence of spelling has nothing to do with Rome or Romania.

[glinda]

On the cultural differences front, the phrase 'gypsy van' conjours up a completely different image to me, that of a painted Romani caravan. (Which if you've never encountered, are properly called vardo, are often gorgeously painted and were still in active use in the mid-90s at least.) On the rare occassion I've come across that in a US context I presumed it referred to one of those VW campervans that hippies painted up all psycadelic. The more you know.

[nostalgia]

I am confused sometimes because it appears to be the Scottish government's preferred term and I *assume* they consulted Roma people before doing that but they might well not have?

And I've heard it used to self-identify (mostly for profit in Blackpool as Fortune Tellers so those people may not even be Roma) but then I hear "Indian" is used by a lot of Native Americans and that's still not the go-to term for people outside the group to use.

So these days I try to avoid it in case it's a slur even if I'm not always sure it's a slur in X or Y country. Basic politeness and all that.

(frozen)

[nostalgia]

The Romani don't speak Romanian (unless they live there, one assumes), their languages aren't Romance, they're Indo-Iranian. It's just a coincidence that the names are similar.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Yeah, they are 'cabs' without medallions and probably no meter.

So Uber or Lyft before cellphones.

[calimac]

To be fair, I think part of their logic is "Because you didn't tell me it was rude yesterday, it's unfair to criticize me for using it yesterday."

But that can be negated by 1) "I'm not criticizing you for using it yesterday, I'm informing you that you shouldn't use it in the future" (assuming it is phrased that way), and 2) "Actually, it's been generally known to be rude for a long time. Did you miss that?"

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Yes, there was a taste for cosplaying in Lord Byron's day in garb so described.

Which does mean that one could call the chic version Byron groupies, but only if we figure out how to make sure he doesn't come back from summoning.