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conuly
First part of the story
Second part of the story
Frankly, the whole story is disgusting me, and I don't have any brainwashing in my past.
Second part of the story
Frankly, the whole story is disgusting me, and I don't have any brainwashing in my past.
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no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 07:47 pm (UTC)Messy divorce and remarriage are the norm among these parents.
I think I see the real problem right here...
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Date: 2004-07-23 08:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 08:53 pm (UTC)That, and just plain stupidity.
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Date: 2004-07-23 09:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 09:35 pm (UTC)(Also, my computer must be very slow, as your comment was not there when I clicked to make my own reply.)
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Date: 2004-07-23 10:04 pm (UTC)The events leading up to a divorce, and the divorce itself, are bad parenting. I certainly have never met anyone who has said "I'm glad I'm in a divorced family intead of having two parents who love each other and me and we all get along reasonably well."
Marriage is supposed to be one of, if not the, biggest committment a person ever make. I once wrote in an essay that if I were an employeer, and I had to choose between hiring a divorced or non-divorced person (all else being equal), I would have to pick the non-divorced person. Why? Because if a person can't be trusted to keep the biggest committment of their life, why should I trust them with my company?
To be blunt, my opinion of divorce is very, very low. Frankly, the only thing I can think of lower is Mr. Bush.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 10:20 pm (UTC)However, I must point out that you use faulty logic in your hiring scenario. While it is understandable that you wouldn't want to hire a divorced person (when there was an equally good non-divorced person available) due to your opinion of divorce, you overlook the fact that typically one person initiates the divorce. The other party may not even believe in divorce, and often certainly doesn't want the divorce. It seems you wouldn't be allowed to ask if your possible employee initiated it or not, as you would intend to use that information in a discriminatory way.
A divorce is an event, and I agree that it's a bad event, but it doesn't make the participants bad people. Can you say which of my parents practiced "bad parenting" without knowing anything of our background or even who asked for the divorce and why?
Nevermind that. It's too argumentative.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 10:26 pm (UTC)So they repress their emotions? Because kids know when there's tension in the house - and often they think it's their fault.
Perhaps they should be taking more care to love each other and their children?
Who says they don't love their children? They could love their children very much and not love each other. Or they love each other, but can't possibly live together - as they say, love don't pay the rent. Maybe you love him, but he's so unreliable that he spends all your money on candy, or she turns out to be so immature that she can't keep a job. Love isn't very much.
Perhaps they should be working together more. If they have issues, they should seek counselling.
And when that doesn't work? Sometimes, problems can't be solved. They should stick it out, make everybody miserable?
Perhaps people need to be more selective about who they marry.
No doubt, but when they aren't, sometimes the solution is to end the marriage. Or they marry somebody, and then they change. Or the other person does. Or they both do. He was spontaneous, but now that you have bills you think he's impulsive. You thought she was a brilliant lawyer, wonderful, but that was before you realized she'd be completely inaccessable for weeks at a time, caught up in her work.
The events leading up to a divorce, and the divorce itself, are bad parenting. I certainly have never met anyone who has said "I'm glad I'm in a divorced family intead of having two parents who love each other and me and we all get along reasonably well."
You haven't? Because I have. I've heard people say they never were happier until their parents stopped trying to make something work that couldn't work. I've heard people say that they were happiest when they knew that their parents' problems weren't their fault.
Marriage is supposed to be one of, if not the, biggest committment a person ever make. I once wrote in an essay that if I were an employeer, and I had to choose between hiring a divorced or non-divorced person (all else being equal), I would have to pick the non-divorced person.
Fortunately, one is not allowed to ask about a potential employee's marital status.
Why? Because if a person can't be trusted to keep the biggest committment of their life, why should I trust them with my company?
What if they were divorced because their husband was an abusive bastard, who used to beat them up weekly? Or because it happened that he was so sweet because he was a scam artist, trying to get all their money. Or because they realized that marriage isn't the biggest commitment of your life - if you have kids, the biggest commitment is raising the kids, and sometimes the best way to do that is to get out of the relationship. If you're a cop, you might well say that the biggest commitment of your life is being a cop, which I'm sure is a great comfort to your spouse when s/he's home alone night after night as you try to do your job. Soldiers, no doubt, are inclined to think their biggest commitment is to their country - another situation that leads to divorce, I'm sure.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 11:06 pm (UTC)No, they do things such as seeking counselling and learnign how to work together. It can be done.
Who says they don't love their children? They could love their children very much and not love each other.
A properly function family would be having everyone loving everyone. That's what family is supposed to do.
Maybe you love him, but he's so unreliable that he spends all your money on candy, or she turns out to be so immature that she can't keep a job.
These are things that should be found out before you decide to marry someone.
Love isn't very much
Love is about loving a person, warts and all. It includes compromising with the person sometimes. If there's something that annoys you about someone, you either choose to accept it and work with it, you can fight it (resulting in unhappiness for both parties), or you can move on to another person - which should have been done *before* the wedding.
And when that doesn't work? Sometimes, problems can't be solved. They should stick it out, make everybody miserable?
Perhaps I have it easy, since I am by nature a very compromising person. I'm not selfish, I don't always need my way. I personally think there's always a way to work things out, if people compromise and aren't selfish.
You haven't? Because I have. I've heard people say they never were happier until their parents stopped trying to make something work that couldn't work. I've heard people say that they were happiest when they knew that their parents' problems weren't their fault.
I was saying that I've never heard anyone prefer a divorced family over a happy non-divorced family - not that they didn't prefer divorced over their tensioned family.
Fortunately, one is not allowed to ask about a potential employee's marital status.
I know, and I'm not expecting I'll ever end up in such a position. I used it to illustrate the point about trust. And no, I can't tell who's at fault - it could be the person fought the divorce, or it was an abusive case. But in many cases, remember the old phrase - it takes two to fight.
I don't like divorce. I hate it. I'm not saying there aren't any legitimate cases for it - abuse certainly being one. And yes, there are cases where it's better to divorce than to stay together. I'm trying to argue that there is something fundamentally wrong with how couples are interacting that is causing these situations. It's a cultural thing - Americans have become so arrogant, selfish, independent, wealthy, etc, that it seems we only think of ourselves, and can't get past ourselves to work together for the betterment of everyone involved.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 11:14 pm (UTC)Not all people respond to counseling. What if you want to work through the problems, but your partner doesn't? Then what?
A properly function family would be having everyone loving everyone. That's what family is supposed to do.
And if it doesn't, a good option is ending it. You can't force love. In fact, I'll say that basing your family in love is a BAD idea. Base it on something realistic, like the ability to pay the bills or not drive each other insane. Too many people base marriage on "love", and then find out later that love doesn't last.
These are things that should be found out before you decide to marry someone
No doubt, but let's try to work in the real world, where people make mistakes.
Perhaps I have it easy, since I am by nature a very compromising person. I'm not selfish, I don't always need my way. I personally think there's always a way to work things out, if people compromise and aren't selfish.
I think you are mistaken. Some problems are so big, some people can't compromise. It'd be nice, but that's not true for everybody.
I was saying that I've never heard anyone prefer a divorced family over a happy non-divorced family - not that they didn't prefer divorced over their tensioned family.
And I'd rather my dad weren't dead, but, again, we're constrained to the world of mistakes and accidents.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-24 10:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-24 03:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 10:26 pm (UTC)Can I come live on your planet? Because it sure ain't in this solar system.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 10:46 pm (UTC)I thought Mennonites were like the Amish?
Seriously, though. While a lot of people get divorced because they rushed into marriage, or because they just didn't take it seriously, there's also a lot of people who really shouldn't stay married.
Frankly, I've always thought the institution of marriage was an unnatural one anyway. I prefer those (few) cultures where children tend to grow up in the same house with their mother grew up, and her mother, and hers, and the male role model is expected to be your uncle(s). It seems more stable.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 10:52 pm (UTC)No, I'm serious. Part of the reason divorce rates are so high is because people understand that it is possible to become dissatisfied with one another, and rather than living mediocre lives they move on to richer pastures. It's possible to live with someone and be happy without being satisfied. I know that our rates are too high because people don't take marriage seriously, but I'd rather see people happy than shackled together because they thought (hell, for years) that they could take on such a commitment. For years I wanted to be a lawyer. Now I'm studying chemistry.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-23 09:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-24 07:45 am (UTC)My ex and I were together for 3 years before we got married, and after we moved and got married, he became a raging alcoholic...verbally absive, the whole 9 yards. He wasn't like that for the first 3 years...everything was fine, until we moved.
Of course I left him! That makes me a BETTER parent than I would have been had I stayed and subjected my kids to that.
Divorce does not make horrible parenting. Not at all.