In other news, an Eva-cdote!

[conuly]

We were heading towards the boat to meet their dad. Had I known there'd be terrible train trouble, I wouldn't've bothered to leave for another few hours, let me tell you.

At any rate, as we crossed the street I said "Come on, hurry up duckies!"

Eva: I'm not a baby duck!
Me: That'd be duckling. I said duckies.
Eva: I'm not any sort of duck!
Me: *gushy voice* Yes you are, you're my sweet little puddle duck!
Eva: I am not. I am a woman. *swaggerswagger*
Me: Well, you're a little girl.
Eva: I am a woman and I drive and everything!

Comments

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

An interesting and possibly reasonable definition of adulthood, if "I drive" translates as "I have enough income to support myself and run a car, I am competent, I am independent".
Nice to see that she sees adulthood as a desirable goal, too. I've never understood why some people apparently expect me to regard being called a "girl" as a compliment - is childhood and immaturity somehow seen as a good thing rather than a bad?

[conuly]

I don't think childhood and immaturity are good OR bad things. They just are. Children are supposed to be immature, and acting "like a child" in ways that are unimportant (enjoying games, blowing bubbles, eating peanut butter sandwiches, whatever it is) is harmless. Acting irresponsibly isn't harmless, but while children tend to be somewhat irresponsible it's not the sole defining feature of childhood, is it?

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

The definiing feature of childhood is "under 18", I suppose (precise number may vary with area), but that's because it's a way of saying "dependent", or "limited". Can't do this, can't do that, need permission to do the other. If you're a dependent, not responsible for your own survivial, then yes, irresponsibility is excusable, and since children are learning how to be adults, not already adults, that's fine. Making mistakes is how you learn.

But why anyone would think calling an adult a child is a compliment is still beyond me.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

"But why anyone would think calling an adult a child is a compliment is still beyond me."

It's an evolutionary-psychology thing. Imagine a world in which a female's desireability is directly linked to her potential for producing the maximum number of offspring of her mate: younger females are more desireable because they've got more potential time ahead of them in which to bear children. They've also had less time previously in which to desire and be desired by men, so it's easier to ensure that the children they bear are the children of their mate, not of some other guy. That's the world in which our species evolved.

Therefore the standard indicators of female desireability are mostly indicators of youth, or even of literal girlhood, pre-pubescence. These are fleeting, and a lot of women in this highly appearance-focused culture grow desperate to hold on to them as they age. Therefore, they take it as a compliment to be called a 'girl', not in the sense of 'a child', but rather 'a maiden'. They'd like to believe they can still pass for Sweet Young Things, even when deep-down they know all too well that they can't, because if they admit the truth, they feel old, ugly and unlovable.

Nobody likes to feel that way. Therefore, to people who are prone to feeling that way, being called a 'girl' helps them believe that others see them as young, cute and desirable; thus makes them feel better - which is the purpose of a compliment. It's not very logical, but then, people aren't.

Note that intellectually understanding the reason why some women like to be called 'girls' doesn't necessarily mean that you're ever going to grok it emotionally. On the other hand, age-related vanity is a more powerful force than one tends to suspect when one is young, so you may eventually grok it better than you think. The 'prime of life' has this in common with childhood: that while one is experiencing it, it seems to go on indefinitely, but once it's over, how brief, in retrospect, it appears to have been.

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. You're right that I'll probably never get it emotionally, never having thought of my appearance as an important part of my self-definition, but that goes for a lot of things.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

It's one of those weird social-feedback loops, to which some people are more susceptible than others. I have a hard time grokking how big a deal that whole appearance/presentation thing is to some people; how greatly they're invested in being young - but then, I'm 55 now, and learning I'm not as indifferent to the issue as I once would have thought, because it's not just about 'desireability' - not even mostly about that.

The real issue is social status - power and privilege; who can say what to whom and be heard; who's got a right to take up how much social space and time. There's a very perceptible drop in a woman's social status as she ages in appearance, and a lot of women didn't have that much status to begin with. I guess it's worst for those whose status is most based on appearance, like trophy wives, and least for those whose status is most based on accomplishment, but we're all subject to it. We turn from girls with little or no power, to women with some power, to old women with little or no power. The men lose power as they age too, but not as fast nor in the same ways.

I can't picture wanting to be called a 'girl', and it's kind of strange hearing people do the socially-obligatory little dance of pretending they take me for younger than I am, or acting surprised at learning my age - I'm like, "No, really, I'm 55", feeling like saying "Yo, don't shuck me; I'm allowed to look my rightful age", only that would not be polite. I've even toyed with the idea of telling people I'm 65, so then they'd be genuinely amazed, but I don't think I could sustain it.

What can one say; humans are just odd.

[conuly]

I've even toyed with the idea of telling people I'm 65, so then they'd be genuinely amazed, but I don't think I could sustain it.

That's my mother's approach. Not only are the resulting comments far more flattering than if she lied, but she thinks that people wouldn't be so scared of getting older if decripit women in their 60s weren't claiming to be 32.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

I don't see that enjoying games, blowing bubbles or eating peanut-butter sandwiches are intrinsically 'childish' activities. Games are far more of an adult obsession than a childish one - games are transmitted by instruction, adult or older kid to younger kid; they're a cultural artifact. Everybody likes blowing bubbles; adults just usually have the choice of other, more interesting or productive activities. Same with the peanut butter: children eat it because it's there; because - being children - they can't just grill themselves a steak, whip up some chocolate eclairs, order a delivery pizza or go out to the Chinese buffet. If given total control over their own diets, I don't believe most children would ever choose to eat peanut butter.

Children aren't 'irresponsible'. Children are 'not responsible'. Yes, that is the defining characteristic of 'childhood' as opposed to 'adulthood': adults are presumed to be responsible for themselves and their own actions - to be capable of looking after themselves and getting along with others. Left to their own devices, children are not capable of looking out for themselves very well, nor of protecting themselves from others who would exploit them, nor of refraining from actions that will upset others, so when there's no adult to be responsible for them, they're in trouble, emotionally if not physically.

From a biological standpoint, 'maturity' is when a creature is ready to stop being parented, and begin parenting. Modern human society has a lot of compelling reasons to delay parenting as long as possible - having a first child 30 years after menarche is not that unusual any more - but it's pretty-well scrambled the whole concept of 'maturity' in the old-fashioned sense of "ready to settle down and start a family".

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

LOL, I can just picture the swagger.

Me says, if she was really a woman, she wouldn't say "I drive and everything" - she'd say "I work and everything. It's characteristic of the child mind, to believe that Adulthood = 'cool things one gets to do' rather than 'hard things one has to do'. She'll be a woman when she's got a job she can't afford to lose.

[steorra (from livejournal.com)]

As a child, I didn't want to grow up, because I associated adulthood with having to work etc. I was all too aware that there were hard things I'd have to do that I didn't want to do, and I wasn't all that excited about the perks of adulthood.

(I remember not knowing how to answer "What do you want to do when you grow up?" because what I wanted to do was "be a bookworm", but I knew no one would pay me to do that.)

But then, I have always been weird.

[conuly]

I wanted to be a hermit.

Sometimes I still do.