Over at FRK they're talking about swings in playgrounds

[conuly]

Or the lack thereof.

Now, every time it comes up about people not having this type of playground equipment or that type of playground equipment in their area, it's all "oh, oh, oversafety".

And I have no doubt that misguided safety concerns lead to the boringification of many playgrounds. (REALLY misguided safety concerns. If you make the playground "safe", kids just play less safely, resulting in a net loss of, well, safety.)

But this specific person complained that playgrounds in preschools near her were cramped and small... and also, lacked swings. If they're small and cramped, they probably don't have room for swings. Swings require a lot of space, and only a few children can use them at any one time. If you're short on space, better to use something that many children can play on at once, and that allows for greater scope in play.

Especially in a preschool, where having swings means you need people to help the children on the swings.

At any rate, the conversation revealed something interesting. I mentioned, after several comments about kids running in front of swings and getting bonked in the head, that I thought that sounded just weird. Don't all swingsets in playgrounds have fences around them to prevent this from happening?

Apparently not, and many people said they'd never seen such a thing. Which strikes me, like I said, as weird. It's the norm, possibly even the law for NYC playgrounds! What's it like where you are?

Also on that blog is this link on lunchtime notes. Now, it's always amused me that whenever it's something that the person in question did as a kid or does with their kids it's quite all right, but when it's something Those Other Folks do it's a sign of the apocalypse.

And this can go both ways. Class birthday parties are anti-free range and spoiling children because GOD, can't kids go on in the school day without that silliness? Not having class birthday parties is anti-free range and cruel to children because GOD, did it ever hurt any of us? Leashes are cruel and restrictive. Hand-holding is cruel and restrictive. Teaching your kid to stand by your side is cruel and restrictive. Letting your child run around is cruel to everybody else and stupid. And don't get me started on Santa.

No, no matter what position you commonly take in whatever broader argument you're currently fighting, any individual child-raising practice can be neatly slotted in on your side or theirs, and extolled or demonized as you see fit.

In this case, notes in lunchboxes (except very rarely) are hovering and helicopterish.

Now, I agree, that the pre-printed notes mentioned are sappy and dumb. It's a lunchbox note, not an affirmation. Sending in a note saying "I love you unconditionally" is a good way to get your kid teased, and sending in a note saying that that you purchased ready-made is a good way to confuse your child. "Dad loves me, but not enough to write four words on a piece of paper?"

But I don't think that writing a note, even daily, is going to warp your child's individuality. I mean, it's not like they're bringing their kids home every day for an hour-long lunch with Mom, a newfangled idea that my mother grew up with. Oh. Wait. Right! Lunchbox notes are hovering and unprecedented, but much greater parental involvement at lunch in the past goes unmentioned, probably because it doesn't fit in with this image.

Comments

[delphi]

Apparently not, and many people said they'd never seen such a thing. Which strikes me, like I said, as weird. It's the norm, possibly even the law for NYC playgrounds! What's it like where you are?

I've been to playgrounds in Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia and I've never seen one with a fence. Here, they tend to be built over sand or gravel, and there's the understanding that if you're on said sand or gravel, there's a chance of being hit by a swinging child. What sort of fence are we talking about?

[conuly]

Often (but not always!) the fence around the playground (NYC playgrounds almost always have fences to delineate them from the surrounding park and to keep the smaller children in while the parents sit) is made of iron bars and goes from either about my waist height to about my eye height.

Usually the fence around the swings is my waist height and chain link, but it might be the same stuff the fence around the playground is made of. In playgrounds geared to toddlers it'll have a gate, but for older kids there typically isn't one, as it's assumed they're not that dumb.

[delphi]

Ah, interesting! Up here, perhaps, extra fencing in areas frequented by children is just one more thing for some kid to get their tongue stuck on in winter.

(Oh god, one winter when I was in elementary school, some kid literally ripped a large piece of his tongue off on a playground fencepost, and the school never cleaned it off—just left it there as a grisly, purple reminder that this is why we don't do that.)

[kyrielle]

Yeah. My son's preschool doesn't have swings on their playground. They couldn't fit swings on that playground if they wanted to: there simply isn't space.

On the other hand, if safety law suits were an issue, they wouldn't have a play structure taller than I am with a slide, and they wouldn't have the little lower area with gardening/natural world things including stumps, dirt, shovels, etc. Or the large indoor gym for bad-weather days with things to climb on, jump off of, roll over, etc. This is for the 2-5 set: they're just trying to use a tiny outdoor space (and a better indoor space) in the best possible way to teach and entertain the kids.

And no, I've never seen a fenced-off (in the sense of "can't walk in front of it") set of swings. I have seen fenced-off playgrounds, accessible only from inside the school or center that has 'em, but not separated swings. (Data points: growing up in Oregon, college in small-town Iowa.) I have seen, in newer playgrounds (last two decades, as opposed to the ones I grew up with) a tendency to think and actually place the swings so they don't swing into a convenient path to other equipment, however. The grade school I went to, the best route to the monkey bars from the door was, basically, in front of the swings. I'm amazed I don't have a childhood memory of someone getting kicked in the head there. :P

Also, growing up, I never got or knew anyone who got lunch box notes. I still fail to understand how sweet ones could be smothering - I know people who advocate tucking such notes into a spouse's lunch to increase connection too. Now if the lunch box note is a reminder to do something or not do something or a nag or the like - I mean, I suppose you could USE it to hover - but I don't see that it's inherently hovering.

Pre-made ones aren't necessarily hovering either, but they do seem pretty dumb. :P

[conuly]

I know people who advocate tucking such notes into a spouse's lunch to increase connection too.

[siderea]

No fences around swings where I grew up (NH), but at the playground across the street (MA), the swings are segregated from the rest of the park in a fenced-in area that also encloses some benches for parents and some free running space.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

I'd never heard of this before. And from a possibility un-safe perspective, that would just hinder my ability to jump from the top of the swing.

[conuly]

If we have to give room not just for the swings but for the jumpers, it really cannot be countenanced.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Not in small playgrounds, but swings were one of my favorite playground pieces, so I do like when they are there. I do see the impracticality, but it does need to be balanced against their awesomeness.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I'm just saying boo to swing fences.

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

They put fences in front of swingsets now?

Yeah, I grew up in a dangerous time.

[conuly]

What "now"? They were there in the 80s. Possibly longer, but that's as far back as I can remember.

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

This may be one of many examples of trends not reaching the Midwest until long after they've been established elsewhere. The swingsets of my childhood definitely didn't have fences, and I'm thinking that lasted at least until 1994.

[conuly]

Or it might just be a New York thing. I'm not sure, which is why I asked :)

At any rate, because I'm used to it I think it's just plain common sense and a reasonable safety measure. I'm sure the people who aren't used to it think it's silly.

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

I should go investigate local playgrounds/swing on their swingsets, y/n?

[conuly]

Yes, just don't look creepy. People get weirded out nowadays about unattended adults on playgrounds.

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

I'm a lady, so they should be fine with me, right? I'm obviously a barren woman longing for children of my own, but as long as I'm not ogling pregnant ladies' bellies, I'm not dangerous.

Or I'll be swinging on the swings because damn it, I haven't had swingset time for like ten years and I want some.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

"I'm obviously a barren woman longing for children of my own, but as long as I'm not ogling pregnant ladies' bellies, I'm not dangerous." <3

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

You might be disappointed - playground swings these days are much narrower than they used to be; they're all sling-type rather than board-type, and adult female hips don't fit comfortably into them. Standing up on them is right out, of course.

LOL, I'm obviously a grandma, or more precisely a pre-grandma, longing for grandchildren of my own, so I am free to ogle pregnant ladies' bellies as much as I want.

[conuly]

You can stand on them if you're determined enough, but I'm not sure about standing two to a swing.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

It's really sad to think how there are fewer and fewer of us left who know how to pump standing up two to a swing. Even if we still had board seats, most swingsets these days are so short that it wouldn't be worth it.

*sigh* I remember the best-ever swing, tied far out on a high, high branch, with a big wide board - once I got it up to full swing (standing up of course) I could also get it spinning. I spent hours and hours of my last two years of high school on that swing.

They can boringify all the playgrounds, but there's always gonna be trees, ropes, and adventurous young engineers to put them together in creatively perilous ways.

[redbird]

The trick is to go during off hours when there are no children there: then all you get is stared at by other adults who think you're not being adequately grown-up.

Fortified swingsets?

[marveen.livejournal.com]

Not around here. Not in the 80s, not today.

And earlier this year we were on a picnic and there was a wooden playset/jungle gym/etc. assemblage--the swings were not fenced off, and the slings were fine for my somewhat-larger-than-average hips. (The slide was a little flimsy, though I could find no weight limits printed on the labels.)

Re: Fortified swingsets?

[conuly]

They're not really fortified. It's usually just a waist-high bit of chain link without gates (unless the playground is geared for very small children).

[leora.livejournal.com]

I grew up without fences in front of swingsets, as best as I can recall. We had to pay attention when near the swings and realize walking in front of swinging feet is a bad idea. But when you're small, your head is only in range of swinging feet reasonably close to the swing.

I don't have a problem with lunchbox notes, although I never received any. In fact, my parents usually sent me with money to buy lunch at school, although sometimes I did bring lunch from home, I'm fairly sure. I do think some of those messages are silly, and I do think buying pre-made cards is rather ridiculous. I'd be more inclined to send notes that said things like, "Hope you're having fun today" or "Have a great day in school" or similar. I think nice messages are always a good idea and kind of sweet. As to parents who want to take effort to be decorative and creative - I think it's a good thing to model for children. I don't think you need to do that, but if you want to then it's nice to display some basic arts and crafts stuff in a practical setting.

And I quite liked going home for lunch when I was in High School. Some semesters my mother would cook for me. That was far more enjoyable than the alternatives, although I often chose not to go home for lunch once I realized that it was harder to drag myself back to school on days I went home for lunch.

[conuly]

The notes I send once or twice a week with the nieces (I try to remember to do it at least that often) mostly include jokes and sometimes comments about the weather. I'm not a very creative note writer, and I kinda have to rush them out.

Ana always comes home and claims she didn't read the note (I got her once, when she stormed out in a huff swearing she'd NEVER read the note I packed because I was MEAN. Wrote a note saying "Ana, do not read this note, no matter what!" Had a good laugh when she came home wondering how she could follow the instructions without reading them.) and she doesn't want notes because then all the kids go "What's the note say?" and it annoys her.

But just yesterday I went through her bag to reclaim Five Children and It and I found the note I'd written on the first day of school carefully folded and tucked into the pocket of her binder - a binder I know for a fact she didn't have on the first day of school.

[tsukikage85.livejournal.com]

"But just yesterday I went through her bag to reclaim Five Children and It and I found the note I'd written on the first day of school carefully folded and tucked into the pocket of her binder - a binder I know for a fact she didn't have on the first day of school." That is too sweet. Gotta love love.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

Awww, sweet, she does love them. What a stubborn little jerk. :)

Yesterday Kira took a lunch from home and asked me to write her a note in her lunch box...and I forgot. I felt bad when I got halfway to work and realized it.

[conuly]

Ana is a darling in many, many ways... but yes, in other ways (and sometimes the SAME ways) she is, as you said, a stubborn little jerk.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

I don't usually see fenced-in swingset-specific areas. The swingsets when i went to kindergarten all the way to high school and all of the local parks that i'm familiar with have swingsets out in the open in the playground, although yes they're in very open sections of said playgrounds. These are all in Tennessee.

Some of the beaches and parks here in California (where we're stationed currently) have swingsets, and those are also out in the open.

I'm hoping that our next move puts us within visiting-distance of NYC.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

In the 80's there were no swingset fences in the parks, schools or day-cares of Columbus, Ohio. I've never seen one here in Washington either, though admittedly I live far from the cities - they might be standard equipment in Seattle by now, for all I know.

I'm sure they are a good idea in small, crowded playgrounds where kids would be likely to get in the way of the swings. Our parks and playgrounds here tend to be large and uncrowded, so the benefit wouldn't outweigh the expense. There's also something to be said for the visceral learning-experience a kid gets from being knocked down by a swing: could save his or her life in traffic some day.

I favor a goodly amount of 'safe danger' in the lives of children. Lacking scary but non-lethal challenges in their approved environment, the bold kids will go out of bounds to seek real danger in unapproved environments, while the timid ones fail to learn the skills they'll need when they're older and real danger comes seeking them.

Heh, the best, most memorable swings of my youth were not manufactured swing-sets in playgrounds - they were tires, boards, or just loops of rope, hung from tree branches or barn rafters, and they had no safety features whatsoever, nor any adult supervision either.

I never got notes in my lunchbox, and my daughter always got the school lunch... I don't think either of us are really the lunchbox-note type. It's a nice idea for those who like it, though.

[grammaravenger.livejournal.com]

Nope, they're not standard in Seattle. Not that I leave the Wallingford/Fremont/U-District zone much, but I've never seen a swing-set fence. I've never seen a swing fence before - in southern California, Seattle, or Germany - so I think I'd be sufficiently startled to take note if I ever encountered one.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Icon love! Woot, Spock rules! :)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

No swing-set fences here (on the playgrounds I know). I think the theory behind it is that either kids are too young to take care of themselves, in which case they won't go to the playground unattended, or they are old enough to go the playground on their own, in which case they are also old enough to know that you ought to be careful around swings.

No doubt we'll have fences in a couple of years, though. That is, if we still have playgrounds then... [/cultural pessimism]

[sayga.livejournal.com]

I'm racking my brain here and I've come to the conclusion that if I have ever seen a swing fence, I didn't realize what it was. I am pretty sure that in all the playgrounds I've been to since having kids (and I only remember one specific playground from when I was a kid, and it also fits into this statement) have not had a fence around the swing set. If there was a fence at all, it was around the entire playground area, or around the playground AND a field. No fences enclosing just the swings. We've been to a lot of parks since moving here because most of the kids toys were packed, and I definitely haven't seen it here yet. Sometimes, in a HUGE playground, the swings are off to one side so the only reason to deliberately go over to that area would be to swing, but that's it.


Our neighborhood park in AZ.

[ksol1460.livejournal.com]

Never heard of such a thing until reading this! We've been all over the U.S., never seen a fence around a swing set ever in our lives. If runners didn't stay out of the way that was their problem, but mostly they did.

[pne.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've ever seen a fence around a swingset here in Germany.