Two quick links. And a rantling! Or two!

[conuly]

High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threatened

I could, at this point, cherrypick a few telling Bible quotes to show these guys up as raging hypocrites... but I'm not going to do that. You know the drill, do it on your own.

Now, coincidentally, the same day I read that article I picked up a new book for the nieces, Penina Levine is a Hard-Boiled Egg. Had I read the blurb more carefully I probably wouldn't've. It turned out to be an "issues" boo, with the issue being that Penina's teacher is an ignoramus. Those, for whatever reason, don't tend to be as good as ones that aren't dominated by a single Important conflict. And this book isn't that great. It's okay, it doesn't have any real flaws that I'm going to go "Wow, this book sucks!", but it's nothing to write home about.

It has two negative reviews over on Amazon. One of them ran "I don't think the teacher's reaction makes sense, and it makes no logical sense that Penina would refuse to do the stupid Easter bunny assignment but be willing to go to church with her friend one day. She shouldn't mix religion with friendship!" (Not an actual quote.)

Now, it turned out that what the reviewer meant about the teacher is that she thinks it makes no sense for the woman to do a 180 by the end of the book after Penina's mom calls the principal. This makes more sense than what I thought she meant, but I still disagree. The teacher never really gets a clue, and acts more like somebody who had her ass handed to her than somebody who really understands about not trampling on the rights of the minority.

As far as visiting with her friend at church, I don't see - and said so - that it's inconsistent at all. CHOOSING to go with your friend to church (and not participating in anything that conflicts with your beliefs or makes you uncomfortable) is not at all the same as being forced or coerced to act as though other people's beliefs are your own.

And this is what really bugs me, is when people say ONE thing and then, when you disagree, claim they said something else. In a reply, the reviewer says that it's just WRONG for Jewish children to ever willingly enter a church because it's condoning years of terrible things done by Christians to Jews, and that SHE grew up without ever inviting her non-Jewish friends over for her holidays or giving them Christmas gifts or anything, and Penina isn't a good example.

Now, quite aside from the fact that there is a wide range of opinions on whether or not it's ever appropriate to participate in somebody else's holidays or worship services (and to what degree), this is not what her original point was. What she said at first is that it's illogical and inconsistent. And now she's saying that what she meant was it's just a bad thing to do. Say what you mean and mean what you say, people! Don't say one thing and then claim you meant something entirely different!

Ugh.

But you know, this person at least seems to have thought a little before reviewing. I disagree with some things she said, but she didn't just say whatever.

Check this one out.

If you can work out what this woman is even attempting to get at, please let me know. All I could figure out is that apparently if your grandma survived the Holocaust by hiding in a Catholic school run by nuns, she was "treading on and upsetting personal religions TRADITIONS" (emphasis hers - and I kinda think that taking (or not taking) Communion is more than a "tradition") and you should be ashamed of her and not let her visit your classroom. Or something. It was a good laugh until I opened up page 127 and figured out what the heck she was trying to talk about in that sentence.

These two links don't really go together, except in that they do.

Comments

[leora.livejournal.com]

I grew up resenting having religion, especially religion that was not my family's, forced on me. But I did go to church now and then (none of which were my own, as my family is Jewish) and to various religious events (family of friend's Christmas holiday celebrations, a friend's confirmation, that sort of thing, just as I invited my friends of all faiths to my Bat Mitzvah). We were taught protocols for respecting religious observances that were not your own. So, I was taught to sit quietly, stand when others stood, but not to bow or kneel. I did not go up for wafers or say any of the prayers. I was to dress respectfully. And if someone was in my temple or at my religious event and was similarly sitting quietly, standing when appropriate, not bowing, not saying prayers, but being respectful I would assume they were there either to learn more or as a friend, and were showing proper respect for a faith not their own. My Girl Scout troop made a point of having trips to several different religious things in the community, because they thought the experience of being exposed to several of the religions present in our community would be a good one.

None of that made me any less resentful of having religion forced on me.

On a side note, knowing all of that, and even knowing that Muslims pray facing Mecca, does not prepare you to get out of the way when you are at a celebration at the end of Ramadan. That one took me by surprise, and I was standing in the wrong place, and had to figure out that I needed to walk over to elsewhere so it didn't seem like they were praying to me. I still feel awkward about that, but I didn't know the timing nor the direction in advance. Fortunately, nobody seemed to take it all wrong, and I was just a kid, and I did end up getting out of the way once I sorted out what was going on.

[eofs.livejournal.com]

A couple of years ago I was at a friend's (Christian) wedding. I wasn't taught the protocols you were, but have come to the same conclusions by myself anyway. As a consequence I was profoundly uncomfortable when, to pass the time during the signing of the register, we were 'made' to sing a hymn including doing a little dance routine to it. The judgemental looks I was receiving because I wasn't 'joining in the fun'. It was really, really unpleasant. I appreciate that she wanted something to help the children present feel included and not be bored, but it was inconsiderate of the non-Christians there (including the groom's family!) who might believe the best way to show respect is not to hollowly say holy words!

[leora.livejournal.com]

My neighborhood was roughly 50% Jewish, 50% Christian, so one simply could not assume a given person shared your religious beliefs. However, people did tend to assume you were Jewish or Christian, which wasn't true for everyone (thus the roughly, there was a small percentage of Muslims and probably of other religions as well, but I don't know having not done any research, and some of the Jews were also agnostics or atheists... probably also some of the Christians but it seemed more common among the Jews). In a lot of places, people seem to grow up feeling safe assuming everyone is Christian, and that leads to a lot of annoying behavior.

The value of what I was taught really was two-fold, one to make me comfortable abstaining, but two, to make me not be annoying to others when they didn't participate, because I would know that they were acting appropriately. I think both halves of that are important.

[eofs.livejournal.com]

You are absolutely right on the two-fold nature of the lesson you learnt.

The default assumption here is that you probably report yourself as Church of England, but are unlikely to attend church or necessarily believe in anything. "Hatchings, matchings and dispatchings" is the wonderful phrase to encapsulate the average English person's interactions with the Church in their lifetime. We're a pretty atheist country considering we have a state church!

[conuly]

Ouch. I think the basic rule of thumb for a guest is Sit In The Back. The basic rule of thumb for the host, which your friend seems to have forgotten, is Warn Everybody About What They Need to Know (I really should've known, as a child, that non-believers do not take Communion. It doesn't matter to me, but now I know that it's supposed to be meaningful for THEM, and I should've opted out!) and Do Not Force Them to Join In.

[eofs.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately sitting at the back is very obvious when it's a mostly empty church. (Plus the song involved turning round. There could be no hiding!)

At none of the other church services I've been to recently would it have been an option anyway, as I've been close family in all of them. But fortunately they've been rather more sedate affairs, at which I can sit/stand respectfully in silence. And pass the time trying to translate the programme, or at least vaguely try to follow what's going on in the service. I've attended 3 church services in German in the last three years, versus 4 in my lifetime in English! I don't know whether or not my partner's extended family know I'm an atheist, but thankfully they do all know I'm German so I don't get any pressure. If in doubt, they probably just assume I can't understand anything I should be saying/singing *grin*