A random article
Apr. 7th, 2008 10:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
conulyOne about a woman who GASP! let her 9-year-old take the train home. (I don't think that's a very big deal, although I do think that nine may be a year young for a ride with a transfer).
Naturally, (some) people talk about this like the woman was feeding her child to rabid bunnies or something.
"It's a different world from when we grew up!!!!"
That's what I hear all the time. And I'm sick of it, I really am. You know why?
Because it is a different world. It's a safer world, for one. You want to go and google the violent crime rates in 1998, and 1988, and 1978, and then 2007 (or whenever the most recent year is), you go do that. I'll wait. I'm not even going to bother confirming the number because I do that every time I hear that line, and every time I find out that, wow, the violent crime rates dropped an insane amount over the past few decades.
"Oh, but what about stranger danger?????"
What about it? Yes, I know stranger abductions do happen, somewhat less than 13000 a year (in the entire country!)... but most abductions are family affairs. As for rape and murder, the vast majority of that also happens within a family, or a group of trusted friends, or other people the child knows and trusts. Strangers... not so much. And everything I'm reading right now tells me that stranger abductions have also been decreasing in prevalence... not that they ever were common, you understand.
But you try to tell people this, and they insist you're wrong. And they won't check their facts even in the slightest.
We've been reading a lot of "classic kids books" lately. Ramona. The books by Ezra Keats. Pippi Longstocking. Ramona walks to kindergarten alone. Peter, at no older than six, goes out to do some shopping for his mother and plays in the snow all day. And Pippi, of course, lives alone... but even her parented friends have a lot more freedom than you'd expect!
It's scary stuff, really.
Naturally, (some) people talk about this like the woman was feeding her child to rabid bunnies or something.
"It's a different world from when we grew up!!!!"
That's what I hear all the time. And I'm sick of it, I really am. You know why?
Because it is a different world. It's a safer world, for one. You want to go and google the violent crime rates in 1998, and 1988, and 1978, and then 2007 (or whenever the most recent year is), you go do that. I'll wait. I'm not even going to bother confirming the number because I do that every time I hear that line, and every time I find out that, wow, the violent crime rates dropped an insane amount over the past few decades.
"Oh, but what about stranger danger?????"
What about it? Yes, I know stranger abductions do happen, somewhat less than 13000 a year (in the entire country!)... but most abductions are family affairs. As for rape and murder, the vast majority of that also happens within a family, or a group of trusted friends, or other people the child knows and trusts. Strangers... not so much. And everything I'm reading right now tells me that stranger abductions have also been decreasing in prevalence... not that they ever were common, you understand.
But you try to tell people this, and they insist you're wrong. And they won't check their facts even in the slightest.
We've been reading a lot of "classic kids books" lately. Ramona. The books by Ezra Keats. Pippi Longstocking. Ramona walks to kindergarten alone. Peter, at no older than six, goes out to do some shopping for his mother and plays in the snow all day. And Pippi, of course, lives alone... but even her parented friends have a lot more freedom than you'd expect!
It's scary stuff, really.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 05:07 am (UTC)Public transit is PUBLIC, i.e. full of other people, especially in the daytime. My kid's been riding the bus by herself since she was 10, because it's important for a kid to learn how to get around on her own.
Tell you what, for a girl it's a lot safer if she learns while she's still young enough to be obviously a child, and thus under the protection of every Mom and Dad in sight. People watch out for little kids, but teenagers are a different matter.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 05:44 am (UTC)Yes, he's probably taken that exact same route before. I was pretty oblivious as a kid, but when I started taking transportation by myself (at 10 or 11) I was at least able to get from here to there! (Of course, to this day I routinely get on the N instead of the R and end up in Brooklyn, but I get home safe in the end, that's what matters. And let's not talk about the time I ended up walking through Central Park to get to the Natural History Museum... oy.)
Heck, even Ana, who is four, is able to tell us exactly which train to take to get to her dance lessons. She can even tell me that you have to transfer, and where. (Well, she did once. No idea if she can do it again, but she probably knows where to get off even if she doesn't know the name.) And while she can't tell us if she's going uptown or downtown, I have no doubt that she can go towards the correct stairs.
Public transit is PUBLIC, i.e. full of other people, especially in the daytime.
LOL, I got the article off of parentdish. The commentors there are insane... and I revel in the potential to say whatever and know that I'm only starting relatively low-key drama! Most of them are somewhat sane (that is, agreeing with me) on this issue, but one or two of them... believe me, "full of other people" is what they consider to be the downside of public transportation.
My kid's been riding the bus by herself since she was 10, because it's important for a kid to learn how to get around on her own.
My mother was allowed, at five or six, to go on the train two stops down to her aunt's house alone. (But then, *her* mother had been raised by a very overprotective woman whose first child had died young. I don't know if this was normal for the time or not, how my mother was raised.) However, back to the "commentors have issues" bit, a lot of them honestly seem to think that your job as parent should be to never let on that your kid can get around o her own. If she does get around on her own, that means you're not totally controlling every aspect of her life and keeping her safe. The idea that this is actually detrimental to your child's long-term well-being would go right over their heads, I'm afraid.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 12:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 01:08 pm (UTC)I wasn't using public transit, since there wasn't much of use where I lived. My mother, of course, was using public transit at those ages since that was simply how kids got to school at that time and place, and a kid was expected to be able to get to school on their own.
I think I was about 12 when I felt very good about being trusted to meet my family at some place that involved BARTing by myself. I forget the circumstances, but this was a bigger deal because we lived in New York and were only visiting California. But my family felt I was capable of managing a public transit system I wasn't used to, including walking several blocks through a city I didn't know. I managed just fine.
When I was in high school, I had to take the train in myself to NYC, get to a museum to do research on a project I was doing, catch a cab to the station, and take the train back, alone at night in New York City. I did this a lot for my research project.
None of those are the exact ages or actions in this case, but it feels like taking public transit in my own area at age 10 would fit in quite well in the general theme. I really prefer models that encourage children to develop abilities. My partner and I often comment on how annoying it is that modern US culture seems to try to keep children incapable. But he grew up in Germany and was incredibly frustrated when he moved to the US in his early teens and while he had been mobile for years suddenly found himself unable to get anywhere without assistance and in a culture that expected children to be much less competent.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 02:21 pm (UTC)I work with her specifically on this - not every time making a big deal of it, but I will have her ID which train (letter/number) it is, and count how many stops (two stops on the 4 or 5, 2 stops on the 2 or 3) For one thing, I want her able to know where to wait for me should we get separated. Also, I needed to make sure that if *you* had to take her once, she could guide you :-D
Plus it's just a huge kid-capable thing.
On a side note, I will point out that there are limits. I believe very strongly that Elise's parents letting her just wander at age 3 was NOT a deliberate decision to foster independence but rather a distinct "who gives a fuck" attitude. And that, clearly, is problematic.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 04:52 pm (UTC)Of course, then when I went to PA, I wasn't allowed to cross teh street by myself, but that's a whole 'nothing thing.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 12:06 am (UTC)But she was three. This kid is nine. By nine, Elise was out all night, so there you go.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 05:07 am (UTC)Public transit is PUBLIC, i.e. full of other people, especially in the daytime. My kid's been riding the bus by herself since she was 10, because it's important for a kid to learn how to get around on her own.
Tell you what, for a girl it's a lot safer if she learns while she's still young enough to be obviously a child, and thus under the protection of every Mom and Dad in sight. People watch out for little kids, but teenagers are a different matter.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 05:44 am (UTC)Yes, he's probably taken that exact same route before. I was pretty oblivious as a kid, but when I started taking transportation by myself (at 10 or 11) I was at least able to get from here to there! (Of course, to this day I routinely get on the N instead of the R and end up in Brooklyn, but I get home safe in the end, that's what matters. And let's not talk about the time I ended up walking through Central Park to get to the Natural History Museum... oy.)
Heck, even Ana, who is four, is able to tell us exactly which train to take to get to her dance lessons. She can even tell me that you have to transfer, and where. (Well, she did once. No idea if she can do it again, but she probably knows where to get off even if she doesn't know the name.) And while she can't tell us if she's going uptown or downtown, I have no doubt that she can go towards the correct stairs.
Public transit is PUBLIC, i.e. full of other people, especially in the daytime.
LOL, I got the article off of parentdish. The commentors there are insane... and I revel in the potential to say whatever and know that I'm only starting relatively low-key drama! Most of them are somewhat sane (that is, agreeing with me) on this issue, but one or two of them... believe me, "full of other people" is what they consider to be the downside of public transportation.
My kid's been riding the bus by herself since she was 10, because it's important for a kid to learn how to get around on her own.
My mother was allowed, at five or six, to go on the train two stops down to her aunt's house alone. (But then, *her* mother had been raised by a very overprotective woman whose first child had died young. I don't know if this was normal for the time or not, how my mother was raised.) However, back to the "commentors have issues" bit, a lot of them honestly seem to think that your job as parent should be to never let on that your kid can get around o her own. If she does get around on her own, that means you're not totally controlling every aspect of her life and keeping her safe. The idea that this is actually detrimental to your child's long-term well-being would go right over their heads, I'm afraid.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 12:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 01:08 pm (UTC)I wasn't using public transit, since there wasn't much of use where I lived. My mother, of course, was using public transit at those ages since that was simply how kids got to school at that time and place, and a kid was expected to be able to get to school on their own.
I think I was about 12 when I felt very good about being trusted to meet my family at some place that involved BARTing by myself. I forget the circumstances, but this was a bigger deal because we lived in New York and were only visiting California. But my family felt I was capable of managing a public transit system I wasn't used to, including walking several blocks through a city I didn't know. I managed just fine.
When I was in high school, I had to take the train in myself to NYC, get to a museum to do research on a project I was doing, catch a cab to the station, and take the train back, alone at night in New York City. I did this a lot for my research project.
None of those are the exact ages or actions in this case, but it feels like taking public transit in my own area at age 10 would fit in quite well in the general theme. I really prefer models that encourage children to develop abilities. My partner and I often comment on how annoying it is that modern US culture seems to try to keep children incapable. But he grew up in Germany and was incredibly frustrated when he moved to the US in his early teens and while he had been mobile for years suddenly found himself unable to get anywhere without assistance and in a culture that expected children to be much less competent.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 02:21 pm (UTC)I work with her specifically on this - not every time making a big deal of it, but I will have her ID which train (letter/number) it is, and count how many stops (two stops on the 4 or 5, 2 stops on the 2 or 3) For one thing, I want her able to know where to wait for me should we get separated. Also, I needed to make sure that if *you* had to take her once, she could guide you :-D
Plus it's just a huge kid-capable thing.
On a side note, I will point out that there are limits. I believe very strongly that Elise's parents letting her just wander at age 3 was NOT a deliberate decision to foster independence but rather a distinct "who gives a fuck" attitude. And that, clearly, is problematic.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-08 04:52 pm (UTC)Of course, then when I went to PA, I wasn't allowed to cross teh street by myself, but that's a whole 'nothing thing.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 12:06 am (UTC)But she was three. This kid is nine. By nine, Elise was out all night, so there you go.