Enforced niceness leads people to say silly things, doesn't it?

[conuly]

Listen up, folks. If you deliberately tell your child things you know to be untrue, the word for this practice is lying. And if somebody else says "I don't believe in lying to kids", they're not implying that you lie to your children, they're saying it flat-out. Because you do.

Now, you may have perfectly good reasons for this, and it might all be fun, and your kid will probably not go through 29,000 years of counseling over this (and if they do, I would suggest that their problems go a lot deeper than whether or not Mom and Dad went overboard with the whole Santa thing) - but if you don't like people telling you that you're lying to your kids, I really suggest you don't ask their opinions on, well, whether or not one should lie to children.

And on that note, if I take a stand on "I don't like lying to children (except when it's so over-the-top that the child can easily recognize it's a game)"... guess what? I try to have even *more* respect for you and your intelligence than for the child's! Because you're an adult! So I'm not going to have this opinion (lying to kids is wrong) and simultaneously lie to you when you ask for opinions on the subject of lying to kids.

Should my mind not, in fact, be boggling? Is there a polite way to tell people that no, telling kids lies is the very definition of lying?

I guess I just don't get it.

Edit: On a related subject - we're all adults. FUCK FUCK FUCK SHIT FUCK HELL FUCK. I'm not starring out the vowels. If you don't want to see the word, try not typing it in the first place.

Comments

[leora.livejournal.com]

I believe the slightly more polite phrasing is: I believe in being as honest as possible with kids.

[conuly]

I'll try that next time it comes up (I can edit the post, of course, but can I edit people's minds?), but if I get somebody telling me "I dislike the implication that I'm being less than fully honest with my kids", I swear I'm going to curse them out. WITHOUT ASTERISKS. :)

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

If you are equating "fully honest" with "full disclosure", I disagree that adults should be fully honest with children. I also disagree if you are of the opinion that euphamisms are lying to children.

Having said that: I find "I'll tell you later", "I don't know", and "I don't think you're ready to know that yet" to be acceptable things to tell children.

Having said both previous things: I personally try to be honest and tactful with my children. I don't always succeed, but I try. And if I turn out to be wrong, I apologize and admit it, because I don't want my children thinking that adults are anything other than fallible humans.

[peaceofpie.livejournal.com]

I wonder...isn't starring out the vowels in the presence of kids an awful lot like lying to kids? I mean, to me that's like saying "It's not okay to say 'bad words', but it's okay to say them if you're an adult or if you star out the vowels, because then you're not really saying the word, so you must not really mean it..." and on some level attempting to hide the truth of what you're communicating by using words like FUCK FUCK FUCK SHIT FUCK HELL FUCK?

My inner child thinks censorship is BULLSHIT. ;-)

[leora.livejournal.com]

I said slightly, and I am guessing. There's no polite way to say I think your parenting ideas are a stupid idea.

However, keeping as neutral a tone of voice as possible while saying that you believe in being as honest as possible with kids might be less offensive than calling it lying.

Plus the "as possible" gives wiggle room for situations where it seems like being fully honest isn't a good idea.

[conuly]

Not really - they know what the words are too. It's just condescending.

[conuly]

I don't think typing f*ck is lying to a kid, I think children are smarter than that. I do think it's lying to yourself, if you think that somehow omitting the u means you didn't just curse, or whatever - especially on a board for adults instead of said children. If you don't think that language is appropriate there, ban the language, don't ask people to pretend to not type it.

And no, I'm not all for full disclosure, either. If what you're saying is going to go over their heads, or is going to upset them for no good reason - why bother? But you can be honest about the fact that you're not telling them everything.

[conuly]

But I don't think it's a stupid idea. It's just something I don't believe in for myself (which exactly what I said, very carefully saying that I don't think my belief in this matter should apply to other people at all).

I mean, I don't believe in God, but that does not mean that I think other people's religious beliefs are a stupid idea. (And even if I did, I could think "man, that religion is stupid" while simultaneously accepting (as with the whole Santa thing) that it can make people happier (or better people, or more fulfilled - fill in the blank), even if I think I can do without, thanks very much.)

[leora.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, then you want to convey that. Tricky...

Maybe something like: I don't have a problem with other people raising their kids that way, but I prefer being as honest as possible with children.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

I can agree with all of that.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I believe the slightly more polite phrasing is: I believe in being as honest as possible with kids.

[conuly]

I'll try that next time it comes up (I can edit the post, of course, but can I edit people's minds?), but if I get somebody telling me "I dislike the implication that I'm being less than fully honest with my kids", I swear I'm going to curse them out. WITHOUT ASTERISKS. :)

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

If you are equating "fully honest" with "full disclosure", I disagree that adults should be fully honest with children. I also disagree if you are of the opinion that euphamisms are lying to children.

Having said that: I find "I'll tell you later", "I don't know", and "I don't think you're ready to know that yet" to be acceptable things to tell children.

Having said both previous things: I personally try to be honest and tactful with my children. I don't always succeed, but I try. And if I turn out to be wrong, I apologize and admit it, because I don't want my children thinking that adults are anything other than fallible humans.

[peaceofpie.livejournal.com]

I wonder...isn't starring out the vowels in the presence of kids an awful lot like lying to kids? I mean, to me that's like saying "It's not okay to say 'bad words', but it's okay to say them if you're an adult or if you star out the vowels, because then you're not really saying the word, so you must not really mean it..." and on some level attempting to hide the truth of what you're communicating by using words like FUCK FUCK FUCK SHIT FUCK HELL FUCK?

My inner child thinks censorship is BULLSHIT. ;-)

[leora.livejournal.com]

I said slightly, and I am guessing. There's no polite way to say I think your parenting ideas are a stupid idea.

However, keeping as neutral a tone of voice as possible while saying that you believe in being as honest as possible with kids might be less offensive than calling it lying.

Plus the "as possible" gives wiggle room for situations where it seems like being fully honest isn't a good idea.

[conuly]

Not really - they know what the words are too. It's just condescending.

[conuly]

I don't think typing f*ck is lying to a kid, I think children are smarter than that. I do think it's lying to yourself, if you think that somehow omitting the u means you didn't just curse, or whatever - especially on a board for adults instead of said children. If you don't think that language is appropriate there, ban the language, don't ask people to pretend to not type it.

And no, I'm not all for full disclosure, either. If what you're saying is going to go over their heads, or is going to upset them for no good reason - why bother? But you can be honest about the fact that you're not telling them everything.

[conuly]

But I don't think it's a stupid idea. It's just something I don't believe in for myself (which exactly what I said, very carefully saying that I don't think my belief in this matter should apply to other people at all).

I mean, I don't believe in God, but that does not mean that I think other people's religious beliefs are a stupid idea. (And even if I did, I could think "man, that religion is stupid" while simultaneously accepting (as with the whole Santa thing) that it can make people happier (or better people, or more fulfilled - fill in the blank), even if I think I can do without, thanks very much.)

[leora.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, then you want to convey that. Tricky...

Maybe something like: I don't have a problem with other people raising their kids that way, but I prefer being as honest as possible with children.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

I can agree with all of that.