I have a probably insulting question...

[conuly]

The other day, I was at the museum, and I commented (for no reason, actually, I don't know why I did that) that I can't abide strollers. Up the stairs, down the stairs, on the bus, off the bus....

The person I was talking to mentioned that she hadn't ever taken her Ana-sized kid on the bus yet. (Well, this *is* Staten Island....)

What she didn't know is that we'd actually detoured from our normal route, been incredibly late, and taken car service from the boat that day.

Seven dollars, pre-tip. Seven dollars for, what, a five minute car ride? Used to be four, only about a year ago.

If gas has gone up that much, I wonder that *anybody* can afford to drive! All you people living in places without public transportation ought to get on that.

So... how can people afford to drive? Are prices really that high? I'm out of the loop here, this being something I don't really care about in my day to day life.

(And, for your disinterested information, public transportation is much better for kids than cars. They can't snuggle with you in cars when they're upset, they can't stand up and hold the pole like a grownup in cars, they can't ring the bell in cars, they can't improve their social skills in cars (Ana's being taught right now not to stare. Better to teach her at three than to wait and teach her at seven. She's already learned how to say "excuse me" and "thank you bye thank you bye" and similar necessities) and all the money you save can go straight into college (if you live in a place without a decent educational system....) or other necessities. But I'm biased.)

Comments

[marveen.livejournal.com]

No, gas has not doubled in price since a year ago. Not even close. (Maybe licensing fees went up?)

I'm sorry, but for rural areas there simply is no alternative to owning a car. And even if I DID live in the city, I'm extremely leery of the many drawbacks of not owning a car--you're chained to the bus schedules; you can never transport anything that's bigger than you can carry in one load; you have to take extraordinary measures simply to go out to Mt. Rainier or the Peninsula, let alone to Portland or Seattle (the price of a rental car is STEEP, and don't even ask about train or airfare); you can't live in one town and work in another....

[conuly]

(Maybe licensing fees went up?)

Maybe, though I think most of the people at the boat are unlicensed. Though this certainly *is* good news :)

I'm sorry, but for rural areas there simply is no alternative to owning a car.

Bike? I don't know, not being rural.

You're chained to the bus schedules

...unless you decide to walk or take a bike.

And it's no worse than being chained to remembering to fill up the gas, perform basic maintenence, get your car cleaned.... If the bus system is used widely enough, they run pretty frequently.

you have to take extraordinary measures simply to go out to Mt. Rainier or the Peninsula, let alone to Portland or Seattle (the price of a rental car is STEEP, and don't even ask about train or airfare); you can't live in one town and work in another....

None of which applies in my experience, where plenty of people use the Metro-North or the PATH trains every day. This seems like a failure of the transit system in your area, not like a failure of the potential of the transit system.

you can never transport anything that's bigger than you can carry in one load

Well, it's the same in a car! Your load is just bigger, is all. That's one point to you, I think.

[rachelkachel]

My dad was reading some book about the energy crisis which pointed out that the cost of gas is less than 20% or something of the total cost of owning a car. So it's not as big a deal when the prices go up, and people are less likely to make an effort to get good mileage unless they've got some other reason to.

Make of that what you will, but it struck me as interesting.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

What's metro-north and PATH?

I realize you can take Greyhound for the Seattle-Portland runs I was talking about, but for east to Mt. Rainier and west to the ocean I don't think they run there. (The references here are to the ability to casually take a day trip out to someplace a hundred miles away or more, without days of advance planning and weeks of advance saving.)

And I consider my car's cargo capacity too small as it is--you can't really fit any furniture into it at all. When I buy another vehicle I'm going to look for a small pickup.

[moggymania.livejournal.com]

I think that whether it's expensive depends on your income, your location, and where you have to go. In my case, I spend about $25 per month on gas, living in an area with high gas prices ($2.75+ per gallon) and driving either around town or to other cities quite a bit.

It also depends on needs. Public transit is great for people that it is "friendly" towards, but it's not so good if you have needs that conflict regardless of age... The kind of trips I take here aren't the sort that would be particularly compatible with public transit, especially ones like tonight where I absolutely had to travel a considerable distance in a fairly short timespan. It also doesn't work for my allergies and asthma, because people do wear artificial scents or have smoke residue on their clothing; doesn't work for my PTSD because crowds drive me to meltdown; is totally incompatible with my sensory sensitivity as noise/movement (especially of little kids) drive me over the edge quickly.

Don't get me wrong... I wish that the local equivalent to the subway (here it is called BART) stretched up to my area, because I really like riding them and hate having to drive down to other parts of the Bay. It's just that I know that beyond little things like that, I'm a lot better off having a car to drive, even if I usually need to have somebody else drive for me if at all possible.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Honestly, thanks to gas prices, I have a very difficult time affording driving. (I'm a poor college student, and recently without a job, which makes it doubly difficult.)

But, thanks to my area's lack of quality public transportation (it exists. ...I think.), I can't afford not to drive.

It's a catch-22, sometimes. x_____x

[conuly]

PATH trains run into Jersey. They're run by the Port Authority. Metro-North trains run upstate, into every area that's likely to have commuters into the city. It's run by the MTA. The MTA also runs the LIRR (which everybody I know calls the LIR, because Rail Road isn't two words!), which runs through Long Island.

They all connect up with the NYC subway system in a few key locations.

And this is in a city where the MTA is horribly corrupt and everybody knows it, and we've still got a good system running.

(The references here are to the ability to casually take a day trip out to someplace a hundred miles away or more, without days of advance planning and weeks of advance saving.)

Hundred miles... Hm. Hold on.

Damn. I can't find out how far either of them run. But they're not tons and tons of saving to ride on, because they're basic commuter trains.

you can't really fit any furniture into it at all

I suppose that's important if you're often moving furniture. Can't say that comes up too often in my life.

[conuly]

it's not so good if you have needs that conflict regardless of age...

That certainly is true. I love the bus and train, and I think the vast majority of the world would be better for having decent public transportation and using it, but I certainly wouldn't push it on people who can't use it.

[leora.livejournal.com]

This is true in more than one city I've lived in - public transit stops at a certain time at night. This is a serious problem if you want to go out to something and get back. Found out the hard way that there is no way to see a concert somewhere metro-accessible by metro, since by the time the concert ends, the metro has stopped running. BART stops running at night, leading to the inevitable breakup of socialness so people can make sure to catch the last BART.

Yes, if more people used it they might run all night long, but it's a serious inhibitor to people using it.

Plus, I don't like buses. Trains are good; I like trains. But with buses you have to identify your stop. And you have to interact with people. And often you have to stand up using as little space as you can while throngs of people crush against you, all trying to squeeze in. This happens on trains too, but I find it happens less often, and it tends to be easier to wait for the next train than for the next bus, since it's often indoors.

Oh, and on trains you never need to worry about identifying your stop, because they always have the same stops. So, you can know you have 4 stops to go and count it out. Buses don't stop if no one wants to get on or off, so you can never be sure where you are. Now, with cars, you still need to identify where you are. But if you mess up in a car, you double back. If you mess up on a bus, you get off in the middle of nowhere and either have a long, unpleasant walk or have to pay more money to try to catch your stop on a bus heading back.

Of course, I use public transit. I use it quite often. And I know some of the problems are ones that could be easily improved. But there are reasons to like cars, which also allow for some climate control, and less need to rush.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

I fill up my car with gas every 10 days, and it's about $22. I get 30-40 miles per gallon (just to get to work I have to drive 15 miles, and that doesn't include taking Kira to daycare, running errands, etc). When I lived in Fort Collins, CO, i took public transport and/or walked EVERYWHERE. In Tucson, it sucks. There isn't even a bus stop within 5 miles of my house. I am not sure the last time I saw a taxi. Probably last time I was picking someone up at the airport. The transport system in Tucson is awful, probably because most people don't take it anyway. When it's 110 degrees outside, no one will wait 15 minutes in the full sun for a bus. The sad thing is, though, that all winter, when it's a lovely 50 degrees, no one walks ANYWHERE. People walk way more in Portland in the rain then in Tucson on a cool sunny day. :( I walk to the grocery store with the stroller whenever I can (I would carry her in my arms or in a sling, but then I couldn't haul all the groceries home). It's only 3/4 of a mile away. Sadly, you can tell they rarely get walkers in the store. They're always surprised to see me, walking.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Oh yes... I ride BART a lot. The fun part is never knowing when I suddenly won't be able to breathe. My allergies aren't very serious, so it's never dangerous, just unpleasant. And then the coughing fits. And everyone looks at me as if I'm a pariah, but it's just that someone is likely wearing a perfume/cologne that has set me off. I don't know what triggers it, but every now and then something in the air seems to make breathing a problem for me. And lots of perfumes seem fine, but something just makes me unable to breathe.

On a side note, when I said metro in my previous comment, I meant the DC metro.

[adiva_calandia]

Heh. I don't drive, yet, mostly because I'm terrified of getting behind a ton of metal and not killing anyone with it.

Whenever I do learn to drive, though, I'm in a somewhat unique situation. Gas up here in Alaska is slightly cheaper than in the Lower 48. Good thing, too, because it's very, very difficult to get around up here without a car. We have some limited public transport, and I suppose it serves well enough in the summertime -- at least in the big cities -- but when temperatures are below zero, waiting for even ten minutes or so can be a miserable experience. There's walking or biking, of course, but the same problem applies.

Personally, I look forward to living somewhere with decent public transit. I like taking subways and buses. It takes you a little extra time, but it's cheaper, you have some time to sit down and read or write or what have you, and there's always the possibility of free street theatre. (And the point about kids and public transport isn't one that had occurred to me, but I like it.)

[eofs.livejournal.com]

Petrol here is about... $5.98 per US gallon. I think that's how yours is sold? Unfortunately you just have to suck it up and pay though, because for most people public transport simply isn't an option.

Not that any busses existed which did such a route, but I like to imagine my mother getting my brother and me to our childminder every morning, whilst carrying the two large (open) boxes of paper/files as well as her own bag that was all needed for work.

Or a colleague of mine who briefly tried commuting on the half-hourly trains into the city because it was marginally cheaper than driving, but gave up because she still had to keep paying for her car (insurance, road tax etc) because the money spent on commuting could *only* get her to work and back, whilst the car can take her wherever she wants.

Or the journeys I used to take down to Milton Keynes. By train, it takes anything between 2.5 and 4 hours. You either have to go:
- Loughborough-Bedford (hourly) Bedford-Bletchly Bletchly-MK (one of those last two runs every 90 minutes)
- Loughborough-Birmingham Birmingham-MK (about four and a half hours now I would guess, as there's no longer a direct Loughborough-Birmingham train)
- Loughborough-Nuneaton Nuneaton-(Rugby?)-MK which, back when I was doing this route, gave a 6 minute change
- Loughborough-Derby (hourly, to a city 20 miles away) Derby-Coventry Coventry-MK (probably taking... 3.5 hours perhaps. I dunno - I used to us the direct Loughborough-Coventry train, but that no longer runs. Never did run on a Sunday)

Or you can jump in the car and take about an hour door to door - it's 80 miles straight down the M1.

And this doesn't begin to take into account the unpleasantness of travelling by public transport. I can only assume that New York has similar problems to the London Underground with overcrowding - we have 3 million people using the system a day. Although it's not much use if you're South of the river, there's little coverage there (the porous rock is unsuitable for tunnelling, so they have to make do with the overground trains, which are possibly the worst trains in the country.) Conditions on the tube in the summer are actually inhuman - you couldn't convey cattle in such conditions. I don't know about you, but standing body to body (at rush hour it's not uncommon to be able to be supported simply by all the bodies around you) in a carriage that's approaching 100F with no air-conditioning doesn't sound like my idea of fun (if you can work out how to air-condition a Victorian system, TFL would love to hear it!) That said, most people use it anyway because driving in London is such an arse.

Also, travelling by car the cost stays roughly the same whether you've just got the driver, or whether you have four passengers. By train, that would multiply the cost by 5.

I would dearly love for public transport to be more accessible - not least because I don't drive so I'm stuck having to use it! But it's a simple reality that no system designed to cater for the masses will ever replace the convenience of a car which goes where you want to, when you want it to.

[pne.livejournal.com]

All you people living in places without public transportation ought to get on that.

NB "public transportation" is not the same as "decent public transportation".

You're spoiled, since by all accounts, NYC is one of the few cities with decent public transportation in all of the States (and where it actually gets used by a significant number of residents).

I'm spoiled, too, since public transport in Germany also tends to be fairly good, especially in and around major urban areas (such as Hamburg, where I live). For example, I have three bus lines one minute's walk away, which run every five minutes between them on weekdays and every ten minutes on Sundays.

But other places have busses running over hour or so, on routes which aren't particularly convenient, etc.

I think there's a bit of a vicious circle in the States: everyone has a car, so nobody uses public transport, so the quality of public transport is abysmal (they can't justify funding improvements because there aren't enough users), so people need a car to get anywhere, to nobody uses public transport, etc. ad nauseam.

I don't have a car, either, and rarely miss it: sometimes taking a car would be quicker, but this way I can read on my way to work, I don't have to worry about parking, and it's cheaper. On the odd occasion where I do need a car (usually to transport things), I've managed to have a friend drive me.

[amarafox.livejournal.com]

People who live in cities and drive are insane. Especially if the public transit is good.

For me, because I'm in a small city where everything is 10 minutes away by car (or an hour by bus) it's more convenient AND cost effective to drive. It would cost me $5 round trip plus 2 hours of my day tot ake the bus but because I have a super fuel efficient car, it costs me a buck and 20 minutes. At most.

I do walk when I can and ride my bike when the weather is nice, though :)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Sometimes public transit just doesn't work, even in, say, a city like Miami. It's a HUGE sprawl, and I can drive twenty miles from one destination to another, especially as I live in farmland. It's actually cheaper for me to drive than it is to take public transportation. I have to do that here in Philly, and I freaking HATE IT. Oh it's nice...

unless I need to shop. Which is usually my reason for hopping a train to go down to the stores. I'm limited by how much I can fit in my backpack and how much I can carry comfortably in my arms (roughly 15 to 20 pounds).

But still, $5 to go three stops down each way is enough to make me tear my hair out. In my car the round trip would be less than a gallon of gas. A round trip, which costs $10 via SEPTA, versus less than $2.50 for gas.

I wish I had my bike here. I might bring it up, now that I have a new storage deal.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I didn't even mention the privacy issue.

Re the cargo discussion above: Furniture, not so often. Gym equipment, huge boxes of books, lengthy shopping trips (resulting in scads of bags), cases of pop/water/beer/whathaveyou, bushels of fruit....every week. You can't shop at Costco and take the bus home.

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

I think Connie's point here too is that *if* everyone took public transportation (as is basically the case in NYC), demand (both in terms of ridership numbers as well as pubilc opinion and acceptance) would be enough that there would be no "no service" hours. For instance, the NYC subways don't stop running late at night, although they do come less frequently, say every 30 to 45 minutes. The Staten Island Ferry likewise runs all night, slowing down to every hour after 1:30am. And only a *very* few busses just STOP late at night, most of those have alternatives.
Public opinion on this is as important as numbers of riders because if everyone EXPECTS good, all-the-time service and demands it as their right, that will be listened to. Right now most Americans do not have that expectation or demand. Btw, another GOOD point in favor of public transportation especially late at night after parties is the fact that it will cut down on drunk drivers. One thing my mom never had to worry about if I went into the city to party was my driving drunk. I came home as I went - on the train. :-)

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

Aha! But you *could* share a car with another family if public transportation were a viable option and you only needed a car for shopping trips. :-)

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

Aaaahhh, it freaked me out when visiting my grandmother in Escondido, CA - NO ONE walked!!! My husband and I would walk down to the shopping center, and we were the ONLY ones. Once in a rare while we would see another walker, usually Mexican. Crossing the street was horrible! The lights were *clearly* not designed to allow walkers to cross. We (able-bodied young adults) had to sprint to get across the eight lanes, and even so the light would change before we were fully across. I couldn't imagine what one would do if you could't run - e.g. the elderly or disabled. Or anyone with children! What truly disturbed me was when my uncle wanted to *drive* to the 7-11, a mere two and a half blocks away. It's no wonder he is so heavy. :-(

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

I think there's a bit of a vicious circle in the States:

So very true. In another comment above I mentioned that it is not only the number of riders, but the *expectations and demands* of all the residents, i.e., when the vast majority EXPECT a good public transportation sysytem to be in place, they will find it unacceptable not to have one and will *then* demand change. But most Americans are fine with the status quo, especially as their experience with limited public transportation has not been pleasant. But there is a big difference between a 3-bus daytime only every hour system and an all day all night 5 to 10 minute wait tops many lines and options system.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, I agree that if everyone expected to regularly take good public transit, then public transit would improve. But last I heard, BART said they had no need to run trains later, because people don't use the train late at night.

But people don't use the train late at night, because you'll get stranded wherever you go, you idiots.

*sighs*

[leora.livejournal.com]

There are vicious loops. And improving the system is a bootstrapping issue, it means investing ~now~ for things that payoff later. The US hates those.

The worst public transit I ever used was up in the mountains of California. First of all, there was no way to connect from it to the rest of the world. You couldn't take public transit to more public transit, even greyhound/amtrak transit. So, if you wanted to leave the region, it was impossible without private transportation. Second, it ran 5 days a week. Third, it ran 3 times a day on those five days a week. Fourth, you had to be able to identify where you wanted to get off, because the bus drivers didn't know the names of all the little streets in the area. This led to me being let off, at night, in the wrong place. At night in the middle of nowhere is amazingly dark - they don't have much light pollution and they have lots of trees... it's total darkness. I had brought a flashlight, but that's a tiny light in the darkness. The streets don't have sidewalks, because nobody walks. So, it was walking down the street in the middle of the night in near darkness, but a flashlight. I ended up picked up by a police officer (not in the bad way, in the do you need help? way) and driven home. It did not encourage me to take public transit.

Where I lived in Virginia, you couldn't even bike places. I wasn't blind yet, so I wanted to. But biking meant driving on highway-like roads, so it would have been massively dangerous. Since no one else biked, cars were not prepared to see a biker. So, it was walk or car to get two blocks, if you needed to cross the street.

A lot of regions would need massive infrastructure changes to allow for public transit. They're constantly adding more ability for cars, because that's what people ask for. So, they never get a chance to find out that a train system might be really useful. Plus, most people like being more spread out, and public transit doesn't work as well when it's spread out.

[conuly]

Buses don't stop if no one wants to get on or off, so you can never be sure where you are.

Why not tell the driver where to stop? That's what I often do. Occasionally, it comes up that the driver is a complete incompetant, but it's a lot easier than trying to drive, which'd get me lost *so* fast.

This is true in more than one city I've lived in - public transit stops at a certain time at night.

See, all you people really need to do is demand decent public transportation - which means it doesn't stop at night.

[conuly]

I walk to the grocery store with the stroller whenever I can (I would carry her in my arms or in a sling, but then I couldn't haul all the groceries home

Hm. A shopping cart/basket, maybe?