conuly

Hm. I'm not miffed at you. I just read your comments to that troll on

books and thought they were highly amusing.

On a completely unrelated note, it kills me that so many people in the Veronica Mars fandom are saying things like "OMG! Veronica totally doesn't deserve Logan!". Did these people watch the same show I did?

From:

conuly

I've been asking that question for months.

Have you heard the "Veronica totally betrayed Logan" argument yet? Nevermind that Logan made her life a living hell for several months and that Logan had possibly killed her best friend, it's "Veronica betrayed poor Logan". Gah.

From:

Have you heard the "Veronica totally betrayed Logan" argument yet?

Oh god, yes. I don't think she did anything wrong. I mean, he lied about his freakin' alibi. There aren't too many things he could have done to make himself look like a more likely suspect.

Nevermind that Logan made her life a living hell for several months...

Yeah, and that included public humiliation, her getting drugged, and property damage. Yikes.

Honestly, I think it might be sexism, in the form of people having much higher standards for female behavior than male behavior. What really sickens me is that this attitude is coming from what seems to be a mostly female audience.

From:

sporks5000.livejournal.com

I've noticed that I have a habit of commenting on the posts that no one else seems interested in commenting on.

And yes, I really was thinking about telling you this even before I saw this post.

From:

yadfothgildloc.livejournal.com

I'm not.

From:

closingxtime.livejournal.com

I don't think we've been friends long enough for you to miff me lol

From:

I'm not miffed at you, but it's not possible for me to overstate my hatred of slash. And the insistence that it really is what the author really wanted. And if she has the audacity to say it isn't what she want, then they attack her.

From:

conuly

Well, you seemed to be thinking that 1. because I think it's possible for there to be gay in the books, I'm insisting that it is there 2. that because I read quite a few things, I am insisting that those relationships exist in the book and 3. because I don't like being told "OMG! IT COULD NEVER HAPPEN!" I'm attacking the author. And you were yelling.

From:

I think that the arguments (from you, from others) come across that they're really put out that the author and her agents refuse to dedicate focus on the homosexuality of the characters, when the author and her agents have repeatedly said that the series is not about the sexuality of the characters at all. Therefore, sounding the alarm that the author, and her agents, refused to focus on the homosexuality of the characters is making an issue of it when it wasn't there to start with, at a convention that the authors, and her agents, organized to start with, is really going off on a political agenda.

To me, it looks like Worple and Sanguini were a couple. There may have been boys with boys and girls with girls at the Yule Ball...nobody FOCUSED on them...could that possibly be because they just don't care who someone else is dating?

You never did answer my earlier, serious question about relationships in Harry Potter. I came up with 25, and while I freely admit that I may have missed some of them, some of the ones I listed were only possibly "romantic" if you really stretched it.

Given that the entire environment is of kids, and so naturally their parents, I don't think the presence of "only one" obviously potential homosexual relationship is a failure to acknowledge that there could be "OMGTehgayz!" around the children. I mean, honestly, what do people want Rowling to do? Have Dumbledore jump up during the feast and declare "...stay out of the forbidden forest, and if any of you boys are well hung and interested, I really like to be rammed hard up my ass without lube? And it's ok that I'm 140 years older than you, really!" Honestly...there really hasn't been any CONTEXT to introduce homosexuality in, like, 99% of this storyline.

From:

conuly

But that's not what happened here.

They didn't "refuse to make it the focus of the convention". They certainly had shippy discussion, from what I read. What happened is they said (and, mind, they weren't affiliated with this convention at all, it was fan-run) that no articles on slash or on queer readings of HP would be accepted. That is quite a different thing.

If you had read the post, you would know that the author and her agents did not organize this convention. Their interference in that way was completely unwarrented.

There may have been boys with boys and girls with girls at the Yule Ball...nobody FOCUSED on them...could that possibly be because they just don't care who someone else is dating?

Well, they took the time to notice whom Draco showed up with, and Crabbe and Goyle (each other, hee, but that's stated that they couldn't find anybody else), and Dean, and Ginny....

You never did answer my earlier, serious question about relationships in Harry Potter. I came up with 25, and while I freely admit that I may have missed some of them, some of the ones I listed were only possibly "romantic" if you really stretched it.

You implied that the only relationships I would know about would be from fic. The truth is, I don't care that much about it - as I said in my later post, what I care about is that people who should be able to come up with their own interpretations were strongly discouraged from doing so, and that the mere idea that gay relationships could exist is seen as "not possible" because that would mean she was "making a point". Both of these are feelings I find highly offensive.

I mean, honestly, what do people want Rowling to do? Have Dumbledore jump up during the feast and declare "...stay out of the forbidden forest, and if any of you boys are well hung and interested, I really like to be rammed hard up my ass without lube? And it's ok that I'm 140 years older than you, really!"

Well, in this case, the answer would be "not have Warner Brothers censor activities at a fan-run convention that they are not affiliated with".

Honestly...there really hasn't been any CONTEXT to introduce homosexuality in, like, 99% of this storyline.

There hasn't been any context for Lupin/Tonks, and yet there it is. My entire point was that if one of the characters was revealed to be gay, that wouldn't be "making a point", not "Rowling should have massive orgies to make a point".

From:

Rowling herself has said that people need to keep their fan fic rated PG. Maybe she is like me, and has yet to see any "slash" that could be rated anything less than X.

They took the time to note who Draco showed up with because they always note what Draco is doing. He's one of the main characters!

Honestly (as if you hadn't noticed), I really, REALLY hate slash, and I think people should quit writing it. I can't really motivate myself to be upset about them not allowing slash discussions because, quite frankly, I think they are perfectly within their rights to do that, much as I think they would be perfectly within their rights to demand people writing fan-fic to take it down for copyright violation. The thing that people seem to forget is, this is Rowling's intellectual property and she is ABSOLUTELY allowed to say "this is not permitted"...which, with slash, she has.

I disagree, completely, that there was no context for Lupin & Tonks. I think there was plenty of context. I think it could have been DONE better, but honestly, writing has never, ever been Rowling's strong point. Storytelling has.

From:

conuly

Seriously, I don't know what you're looking at, but most slash I've seen is limited to kissing, staring, and occasionally having not-so-explicit sex. Maybe I just read better writers than you do?

They took the time to note who Draco showed up with because they always note what Draco is doing. He's one of the main characters!

_{Becauseharrylurveshim} (that's sarcasm there.)

I think people should quit writing "Girl from America wears Hot Topic and sleeps with Harry/Draco/Everyone" stories. And "Hermione gets a makeover and sleeps with Draco because she's really adopted and speshul". And... well, lots of things. I don't tell people that, though, I just ignore it.

As for JKR forbidding slash, I know a lot of people who would've been all over that. Is there a link to her saying that? I'll accept that she probably said "Nothing X rated", but... really slash? Correctly defined as "teh gay"? (If she seems to be using slash to mean "X-rated stuff", I think it's fair not to count that.)

I don't think there was any place for Lupin and Tonks. It has nothing to do with the core of the story - most of the relationships stuff in that book fits into that category, really. It just felt tacked on, and completely random.

From:

Maybe I'm looking at the worst of it, but it's already sworn me off writing fan-fic (which I *HAVE* done!) and it's damned near gotten me to stop reading at all.

/me *laughs* at your Harry comment

It would have been a lot easier for me to ignore it if I hadn't felt so SMOTHERED by it lately. I wanted to *talk* about Harry Potter and theories with another adult (or someone who could at least do a passable job of faking having passed high school English in a decent institution), about the series, and all I could find was stupid, bullshit, poorly written, clearly anti-canonical slash. And chan. It was disgusting.

Then, last night (or the night before, or something), I was looking at a post in

linguaphiles, of all things, and the poster said some interesting things so I went to his(?) userinfo, and saw a community called "we_love_jo" or "we_support_jo" or some such, and I thought this was a SUPPORT thing and I thought they were talking about

snarkbite, (!!!) and I nearly blew a GASKET when I found out what it was, because I am not alone.

There was a BBC link (linked in

anti_slash or some such) that pretty much said "fan fic is ok....but keep it PG". Given that all the "fan fic" I've seen is twincest or homosexual love triangles complete with graphic, frequently VIOLENT sex, that pretty much rules them out.

Yes, Lupin/Tonks really did feel kind of tacked on. Like I said, it was poorly done. But they have a WHOLE LOT in common and I think they could make a cute couple.

From:

conuly

Dear God, you must have the worst luck when finding fic. I'll dredge up a list of fic soon, post in on my journal. Some shippy stuff, but I'll try to stick to gen. Add some of the better trawlers which bring me interesting discussions.

From:

Thank you, I'd truly appreciate that.

From:

appadil.livejournal.com

I remember that one of the first fansites which she gave acclaims to happened to be a site focusing on the Marauders (or Sirius, I can't quite remember which off the top of my head and can't be bothered to check right before work), which contained a fair amount of Siruis/Remus and Remus/Sirius fics, and she didn't care. I'm fairly sure its "OMG teh sex!" which she's against and not "OMG teh gay!"

And yeah, you're probably looking in the wrong places... not that the right places are easier to find, especially now that HP's popularity has exploded. Too many people writing and too many of them are AWFUL, whether it's het or slash or gen. This is why I tend to stick to different fandoms and authors who I know and trust, rather than jumping in the deep end and hoping to find something well-done.

From:

I am just SO completely miffed at you. I really CAN'T believe you did [insert whatever you did]!! How DARE you?!!!??!!!??!?!abusing!interro?BANG!!!one!

::cough:: In case you missed it, that was sarcasm. Not mad at you for any reason. Confused as to why anyone would be. ;-)

From:

conuly

Oh, it's a long story. Just don't yell at me ever here, 'k? I'll flip out on you.

From:

Aww! ::hugs:: I'm sorry.

From:

idonotlikepeas

Anything? OK.

Your icons are cool.

From:

Hm. I'm not miffed at you. I just read your comments to that troll on

books and thought they were highly amusing.

On a completely unrelated note, it kills me that so many people in the Veronica Mars fandom are saying things like "OMG! Veronica totally doesn't deserve Logan!". Did these people watch the same show I did?

From:

conuly

I've been asking that question for months.

Have you heard the "Veronica totally betrayed Logan" argument yet? Nevermind that Logan made her life a living hell for several months and that Logan had possibly killed her best friend, it's "Veronica betrayed poor Logan". Gah.

From:

Have you heard the "Veronica totally betrayed Logan" argument yet?

Oh god, yes. I don't think she did anything wrong. I mean, he lied about his freakin' alibi. There aren't too many things he could have done to make himself look like a more likely suspect.

Nevermind that Logan made her life a living hell for several months...

Yeah, and that included public humiliation, her getting drugged, and property damage. Yikes.

Honestly, I think it might be sexism, in the form of people having much higher standards for female behavior than male behavior. What really sickens me is that this attitude is coming from what seems to be a mostly female audience.

From:

sporks5000.livejournal.com

I've noticed that I have a habit of commenting on the posts that no one else seems interested in commenting on.

And yes, I really was thinking about telling you this even before I saw this post.

From:

yadfothgildloc.livejournal.com

I'm not.

From:

closingxtime.livejournal.com

I don't think we've been friends long enough for you to miff me lol

From:

I'm not miffed at you, but it's not possible for me to overstate my hatred of slash. And the insistence that it really is what the author really wanted. And if she has the audacity to say it isn't what she want, then they attack her.

From:

conuly

Well, you seemed to be thinking that 1. because I think it's possible for there to be gay in the books, I'm insisting that it is there 2. that because I read quite a few things, I am insisting that those relationships exist in the book and 3. because I don't like being told "OMG! IT COULD NEVER HAPPEN!" I'm attacking the author. And you were yelling.

From:

I think that the arguments (from you, from others) come across that they're really put out that the author and her agents refuse to dedicate focus on the homosexuality of the characters, when the author and her agents have repeatedly said that the series is not about the sexuality of the characters at all. Therefore, sounding the alarm that the author, and her agents, refused to focus on the homosexuality of the characters is making an issue of it when it wasn't there to start with, at a convention that the authors, and her agents, organized to start with, is really going off on a political agenda.

To me, it looks like Worple and Sanguini were a couple. There may have been boys with boys and girls with girls at the Yule Ball...nobody FOCUSED on them...could that possibly be because they just don't care who someone else is dating?

You never did answer my earlier, serious question about relationships in Harry Potter. I came up with 25, and while I freely admit that I may have missed some of them, some of the ones I listed were only possibly "romantic" if you really stretched it.

Given that the entire environment is of kids, and so naturally their parents, I don't think the presence of "only one" obviously potential homosexual relationship is a failure to acknowledge that there could be "OMGTehgayz!" around the children. I mean, honestly, what do people want Rowling to do? Have Dumbledore jump up during the feast and declare "...stay out of the forbidden forest, and if any of you boys are well hung and interested, I really like to be rammed hard up my ass without lube? And it's ok that I'm 140 years older than you, really!" Honestly...there really hasn't been any CONTEXT to introduce homosexuality in, like, 99% of this storyline.

From:

conuly

But that's not what happened here.

They didn't "refuse to make it the focus of the convention". They certainly had shippy discussion, from what I read. What happened is they said (and, mind, they weren't affiliated with this convention at all, it was fan-run) that no articles on slash or on queer readings of HP would be accepted. That is quite a different thing.

If you had read the post, you would know that the author and her agents did not organize this convention. Their interference in that way was completely unwarrented.

There may have been boys with boys and girls with girls at the Yule Ball...nobody FOCUSED on them...could that possibly be because they just don't care who someone else is dating?

Well, they took the time to notice whom Draco showed up with, and Crabbe and Goyle (each other, hee, but that's stated that they couldn't find anybody else), and Dean, and Ginny....

You never did answer my earlier, serious question about relationships in Harry Potter. I came up with 25, and while I freely admit that I may have missed some of them, some of the ones I listed were only possibly "romantic" if you really stretched it.

You implied that the only relationships I would know about would be from fic. The truth is, I don't care that much about it - as I said in my later post, what I care about is that people who should be able to come up with their own interpretations were strongly discouraged from doing so, and that the mere idea that gay relationships could exist is seen as "not possible" because that would mean she was "making a point". Both of these are feelings I find highly offensive.

I mean, honestly, what do people want Rowling to do? Have Dumbledore jump up during the feast and declare "...stay out of the forbidden forest, and if any of you boys are well hung and interested, I really like to be rammed hard up my ass without lube? And it's ok that I'm 140 years older than you, really!"

Well, in this case, the answer would be "not have Warner Brothers censor activities at a fan-run convention that they are not affiliated with".

Honestly...there really hasn't been any CONTEXT to introduce homosexuality in, like, 99% of this storyline.

There hasn't been any context for Lupin/Tonks, and yet there it is. My entire point was that if one of the characters was revealed to be gay, that wouldn't be "making a point", not "Rowling should have massive orgies to make a point".

From:

Rowling herself has said that people need to keep their fan fic rated PG. Maybe she is like me, and has yet to see any "slash" that could be rated anything less than X.

They took the time to note who Draco showed up with because they always note what Draco is doing. He's one of the main characters!

Honestly (as if you hadn't noticed), I really, REALLY hate slash, and I think people should quit writing it. I can't really motivate myself to be upset about them not allowing slash discussions because, quite frankly, I think they are perfectly within their rights to do that, much as I think they would be perfectly within their rights to demand people writing fan-fic to take it down for copyright violation. The thing that people seem to forget is, this is Rowling's intellectual property and she is ABSOLUTELY allowed to say "this is not permitted"...which, with slash, she has.

I disagree, completely, that there was no context for Lupin & Tonks. I think there was plenty of context. I think it could have been DONE better, but honestly, writing has never, ever been Rowling's strong point. Storytelling has.

From:

conuly

Seriously, I don't know what you're looking at, but most slash I've seen is limited to kissing, staring, and occasionally having not-so-explicit sex. Maybe I just read better writers than you do?

They took the time to note who Draco showed up with because they always note what Draco is doing. He's one of the main characters!

_{Becauseharrylurveshim} (that's sarcasm there.)

I think people should quit writing "Girl from America wears Hot Topic and sleeps with Harry/Draco/Everyone" stories. And "Hermione gets a makeover and sleeps with Draco because she's really adopted and speshul". And... well, lots of things. I don't tell people that, though, I just ignore it.

As for JKR forbidding slash, I know a lot of people who would've been all over that. Is there a link to her saying that? I'll accept that she probably said "Nothing X rated", but... really slash? Correctly defined as "teh gay"? (If she seems to be using slash to mean "X-rated stuff", I think it's fair not to count that.)

I don't think there was any place for Lupin and Tonks. It has nothing to do with the core of the story - most of the relationships stuff in that book fits into that category, really. It just felt tacked on, and completely random.

From:

Maybe I'm looking at the worst of it, but it's already sworn me off writing fan-fic (which I *HAVE* done!) and it's damned near gotten me to stop reading at all.

/me *laughs* at your Harry comment

It would have been a lot easier for me to ignore it if I hadn't felt so SMOTHERED by it lately. I wanted to *talk* about Harry Potter and theories with another adult (or someone who could at least do a passable job of faking having passed high school English in a decent institution), about the series, and all I could find was stupid, bullshit, poorly written, clearly anti-canonical slash. And chan. It was disgusting.

Then, last night (or the night before, or something), I was looking at a post in

linguaphiles, of all things, and the poster said some interesting things so I went to his(?) userinfo, and saw a community called "we_love_jo" or "we_support_jo" or some such, and I thought this was a SUPPORT thing and I thought they were talking about

snarkbite, (!!!) and I nearly blew a GASKET when I found out what it was, because I am not alone.

There was a BBC link (linked in

anti_slash or some such) that pretty much said "fan fic is ok....but keep it PG". Given that all the "fan fic" I've seen is twincest or homosexual love triangles complete with graphic, frequently VIOLENT sex, that pretty much rules them out.

Yes, Lupin/Tonks really did feel kind of tacked on. Like I said, it was poorly done. But they have a WHOLE LOT in common and I think they could make a cute couple.

From:

conuly

Dear God, you must have the worst luck when finding fic. I'll dredge up a list of fic soon, post in on my journal. Some shippy stuff, but I'll try to stick to gen. Add some of the better trawlers which bring me interesting discussions.

From:

Thank you, I'd truly appreciate that.

From:

appadil.livejournal.com

I remember that one of the first fansites which she gave acclaims to happened to be a site focusing on the Marauders (or Sirius, I can't quite remember which off the top of my head and can't be bothered to check right before work), which contained a fair amount of Siruis/Remus and Remus/Sirius fics, and she didn't care. I'm fairly sure its "OMG teh sex!" which she's against and not "OMG teh gay!"

And yeah, you're probably looking in the wrong places... not that the right places are easier to find, especially now that HP's popularity has exploded. Too many people writing and too many of them are AWFUL, whether it's het or slash or gen. This is why I tend to stick to different fandoms and authors who I know and trust, rather than jumping in the deep end and hoping to find something well-done.

From:

I am just SO completely miffed at you. I really CAN'T believe you did [insert whatever you did]!! How DARE you?!!!??!!!??!?!abusing!interro?BANG!!!one!

::cough:: In case you missed it, that was sarcasm. Not mad at you for any reason. Confused as to why anyone would be. ;-)

From:

conuly

Oh, it's a long story. Just don't yell at me ever here, 'k? I'll flip out on you.

From: