A post about Harry Potter, the Warner Brothers, and Slash...

[conuly]

I'm describing it that way because I'm about to go off on a tangent.

A while back, I made a passing comment about potential gay relationships in Harry Potter, and received the reply that it would never happen because JKR is writing a fun book, she's not trying to "make a point about homosexuality".

I didn't reply. I know this may come as a surprise, given my propensity for charging in wherever I think somebody is wrong, but... I couldn't find the words. What could I possibly say to this person?

I remember the Kel books, by Tamora Pierce. In one of them - the first one, I think - one of the characters (a good guy, as it happens), got back at the Sexist Pig Jerk character for an insult by turning it around and making it a gay innuendo. Which eventually prompted a short discussion on how homosexuality isn't accepted in Tortall, but it is elsewhere, something our main character, as far as I remember, doesn't find completely rational (the first part, not the second). Gay people are at least acknowledged to exist in Tammy's books, even if in them no person is explicitly identified as gay. This didn't detract in any way from my enjoyment of the books, nor did I feel I'd been preached at. Later, I read transcripts of several conversations with her in which different characters are identified as gay. (Pretty sure they were reliable transcripts, but I could be wrong here. I wouldn't mention them, though, if I doubted their veracity.) Does that make these books political?

Harry Potter already had one openly-disabled character, Moody. Nobody thinks that having a guy missing a leg and an eye is some sort of statement on disability, do they? They don't complain that by having him turn his missing eye into an advantage that she's somehow bowing to political correctness, not that I've seen.

Racism is a persistant theme in the Harry Potter books. Various groups of people are discriminated against because of what they are, instead of who they are. This would seem to go against the idea that JKR is just trying to write a fun book. But, interestingly, all conversation about race is limited to fictional groups of people - giants, werewolves, goblins, elves. There's at least two clearly defined black people in this English school. There's the Patil twins, obviously Indian. Does this mean that JKR is trying to make some sort of point about race and multiculturalism in England? Or is she just writing the magical world as a logical subset of the nonmagical world, with the human races represented in the same proportions as they are here? Certainly, if she is going for that level of realism, it would be fair to assume that the same percentage of wizards and witches are gay/bi as in the real world, right?

When we find out that Blaize is black, nobody in the books seems to go around shouting OMG! BLACK PEOPLE IN OUR SCHOOL! (The real world is a separate issue, and it will cease to be so as soon as I self-define "real world" to exclude those sillies.) So why should it be an issue to find out that a minor character (or, gasp, a major character, should she be so daring) isn't straight? All it has to be is one line about how so-and-so kissed so-and-so else, and they both are the same sex. They've had interracial couples, and nobody thought that was some sort of political point.

I mean, this is Harry Potter! Action, adventure, and derring-do! It's not like she's devoting chapters and chapters to... um... well, if she'd had more gay, maybe she would've avoided it so as to not upset the fundies. (Not like she should care, they hate her already for magic, but...)

Comments

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

I wonder if people with think I'm Making A Huge Point - a few of my characters are gay. More are bi. There's no stigma against homosexuality in Shayara. Which is not something I'm Doing To Make A Political Statement - it's just what makes sense. There's reincarnation, you're not going to end up heterosexual every time, you're not going to end up the same gender every time, et cetera.

[conuly]

Some people probably do. Of course, there's people who'll interject hidden messages into such childhood classics as Pat the Bunny, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[sicpuppy.livejournal.com]

Ditto. I have a bi-sexual character in my book (he's a rat but the point still stands) and I didn't put him in to make any sort of point about anything. I have bisexual and gay friends so the idea of having a bisexual/gay character doesn't even strike me as anything out of the ordinary.

[ladydiana.livejournal.com]

Just out of curiosity, what is Shayara?

[snale.livejournal.com]

Sort of related to this, I was deeply bummed out when Lupin and Tonks were announced as a couple. I really thought of Lupin as this cool gay uncle. Oh well. Do you think this was planned all along (Tonks/Lupin) or do you think she felt she had to make it clear that he's straight (or possibly bi, I suppose)?

[conuly]

Do you think I'm spending my time analysing Lupin and I'm-so-sad Tonks? They can go fuck themselves for all I care. (Can you tell I'm not a fan over the way that whole thing was announced?)

[rho]

I'm still ging off the assumption that Tonks is bisexual and genderqueer, and that she's metamorphmaging herself a penis for having sex with Lupin.

[bastardsword.livejournal.com]

I think she planned it all along. I too was shocked by how suddenly that was revealed, and a bit bummed about sad!Tonks, but I figure it's mostly due to Harry being a Very Crappy Narrator and not noticing the emotional states of other beings, especially when he's angsting or busy (other than "Parvati looked annoyed" or what-have-you) as opposed to JKR pulling stuff out of her bum at the last moment or due to fannish reactions.

[l33tminion]

Racism is a persistent theme in the Harry Potter books. Various groups of people are discriminated against because of what they are, instead of who they are. This would seem to go against the idea that JKR is just trying to write a fun book. But, interestingly, all conversation about race is limited to fictional groups of people - giants, werewolves, goblins, elves. There's at least two clearly defined black people in this English school.

JKR's approach is pretty popular, though. DC, Marvel, and the like have been doing it for years.

My favorite example of that is from an episode of Teen Titans. When Starfire is treated with derision by a member of another alien race, Cyborg comforts her. He claims that he knows what it's like to experience prejudice because, after all, he's "half machine".

[azarias.livejournal.com]

The problem is that there are a lot of clumsy writers in the world who think that they Must Make A Point if they have characters who brush up against any kind of hot social issue. These people assume that others will be just as clumsy as they, and so either completely miss the clue bus when A Point Is Not Being Made, or latch on to something that isn't meant to be a big deal and hype it into something it's not.

This has been on my mind lately because I've been fangirling a certain comic book series like mad. I'm a few years late to the party for The Authority, but I'm collecting it anyhow and beating people about the head with it whenever possible. One of my absolute favorite things about the series is that you have seven superheroes, and the two of them who are quite possibly the most dangerous are a monogamous, gay couple. And it isn't a big deal. It isn't a deal at all. Not while the series is in the hands of a decent writer. It's just them; just another relationship in the web of quirky relationships that makes the series interesting.

Unfortunately, the series doesn't stay in the hands of a decent writer, and so that, like everything else about it, goes downhill and splats into a wall. When it's good, though, it's good.

[sine-que-non767.livejournal.com]

Nobody thinks that having a guy missing a leg and an eye is some sort of statement on disability, do they?

*LMAO* That's great - I've never seen that raised before.

Glad I inspired you! :D As you say, queer characters (whatever their sexuality) should just be part of fiction, as queer people are part of RL. No 'point' necessarily to be made by their presence.

[ladydiana.livejournal.com]

And in my not so humble opinion, no "point" was made when Worple and Sanguini were introduced.

Here's a newsflash: The MAIN CHARACTERS ARE TEENAGERS. Here's another: The MAJORITY OF PARENTS ARE NOT HOMOSEXUAL. Here's a third: TEENAGERS TEND TO BE CONFUSED IN GENERAL, ESPECIALLY ABOUT THEIR OWN SEXUALITY.

Why then, is Rowling *not focusing on how all of the characters are homosexual* a "failure"?? Even if they are, at that age, a NUMBER OF THEM MAY NOT EVEN KNOW, and of those that are, IT'S NOT A PART OF THE DAMNED STORYLINE!!!

[ladydiana.livejournal.com]

Sorry, and you're not going to like this, but I think this argument is complete and utter CRAP.

Rowling is just barely, BARELY displaying that the characters are even *aware* of sexuality at all, and only the barest hint, and it's not a central plot of the story. Moody's injuries WERE a CENTRAL PART OF THE STORY.

In my high school, my graduating class had 300 people. I know that ONE of them has since either decided he's gay or came to terms with it, but he "appeared" to be straight in high school. Whether because of fear or confusion or indecisiveness, I haven't a clue, nor do I care, because who he sleeps with is none of my damned business.

I think the comment you're objecting to stems from the blindness by the "fandom", the "slashers" and the "shippers", an alarming number of whom are apparently in desperate need of INTENSIVE PSYCHOTHERAPY, ********ARE******** using their writing to make a point about homosexuality. No matter how many times people insist that Harry/Snape "is canon!", when the AUTHOR SAYS IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT. And when upon hearing this announcement, the author is treated with the utmost contempt because she "doesn't know anything about the real characters"...there is a FUCKING PROBLEM.

P-E-R-I-O-D.

I don't know if you've read Anne Rice or not, but in one of her novels, there is an almost unconscionable amount of incest, child rape, child molestation, inbreeding, and gay and bisexual males (I don't recall there being any lesbians). I mean, to the point that it felt like EVERY SINGLE PAGE. And that was one thing, but the prettifying of it, to make it "ok" and "acceptable" behaviour was disturbing.

However, in that novel, it was a CENTRAL PART OF THE PLOT LINE. That's how that family kept their bloodline pure to breed a supernatural creature every 13 generations. She could, potentially, have made it considerably less graphic and less of a FOCUS on the book (i.e. mentioned it without going into several chapter long descriptions of sexual encounters), and she could certainly have championed it a bit less, but it *WAS* a central part of the entire story line.

"Shippers" and "slashers" DO NOT HAVE THIS BENEFIT. All I have EVER seen come out of FanFic in the past five years is gratutious sex with no plotline, usually piss-poorly written, trying to make a statement. And while it used to be a "curious anomaly", it's now taking away from the enjoyment of the original series.

Mentioning someone is gay is one thing. Forcing THE ENTIRE FUCKING CAST AND CHARACTERS TO ALL BE HAVING ROMPING ANAL SEX IN THE CORRIDORS IS ANOTHER ENTIRELY. And until that distinction is understood, there's not much point in further discussion.

[conuly]

You need to calm down NOW. There's no reason to be ranting in ALL CAPS on my journal, on a thread which has been dead for days now. Calm down, and then we'll talk.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

I wonder if people with think I'm Making A Huge Point - a few of my characters are gay. More are bi. There's no stigma against homosexuality in Shayara. Which is not something I'm Doing To Make A Political Statement - it's just what makes sense. There's reincarnation, you're not going to end up heterosexual every time, you're not going to end up the same gender every time, et cetera.

[conuly]

Some people probably do. Of course, there's people who'll interject hidden messages into such childhood classics as Pat the Bunny, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[sicpuppy.livejournal.com]

Ditto. I have a bi-sexual character in my book (he's a rat but the point still stands) and I didn't put him in to make any sort of point about anything. I have bisexual and gay friends so the idea of having a bisexual/gay character doesn't even strike me as anything out of the ordinary.

[ladydiana.livejournal.com]

Just out of curiosity, what is Shayara?

[snale.livejournal.com]

Sort of related to this, I was deeply bummed out when Lupin and Tonks were announced as a couple. I really thought of Lupin as this cool gay uncle. Oh well. Do you think this was planned all along (Tonks/Lupin) or do you think she felt she had to make it clear that he's straight (or possibly bi, I suppose)?

[conuly]

Do you think I'm spending my time analysing Lupin and I'm-so-sad Tonks? They can go fuck themselves for all I care. (Can you tell I'm not a fan over the way that whole thing was announced?)

[rho]

I'm still ging off the assumption that Tonks is bisexual and genderqueer, and that she's metamorphmaging herself a penis for having sex with Lupin.

[l33tminion]

Racism is a persistent theme in the Harry Potter books. Various groups of people are discriminated against because of what they are, instead of who they are. This would seem to go against the idea that JKR is just trying to write a fun book. But, interestingly, all conversation about race is limited to fictional groups of people - giants, werewolves, goblins, elves. There's at least two clearly defined black people in this English school.

JKR's approach is pretty popular, though. DC, Marvel, and the like have been doing it for years.

My favorite example of that is from an episode of Teen Titans. When Starfire is treated with derision by a member of another alien race, Cyborg comforts her. He claims that he knows what it's like to experience prejudice because, after all, he's "half machine".

[azarias.livejournal.com]

The problem is that there are a lot of clumsy writers in the world who think that they Must Make A Point if they have characters who brush up against any kind of hot social issue. These people assume that others will be just as clumsy as they, and so either completely miss the clue bus when A Point Is Not Being Made, or latch on to something that isn't meant to be a big deal and hype it into something it's not.

This has been on my mind lately because I've been fangirling a certain comic book series like mad. I'm a few years late to the party for The Authority, but I'm collecting it anyhow and beating people about the head with it whenever possible. One of my absolute favorite things about the series is that you have seven superheroes, and the two of them who are quite possibly the most dangerous are a monogamous, gay couple. And it isn't a big deal. It isn't a deal at all. Not while the series is in the hands of a decent writer. It's just them; just another relationship in the web of quirky relationships that makes the series interesting.

Unfortunately, the series doesn't stay in the hands of a decent writer, and so that, like everything else about it, goes downhill and splats into a wall. When it's good, though, it's good.

[sine-que-non767.livejournal.com]

Nobody thinks that having a guy missing a leg and an eye is some sort of statement on disability, do they?

*LMAO* That's great - I've never seen that raised before.

Glad I inspired you! :D As you say, queer characters (whatever their sexuality) should just be part of fiction, as queer people are part of RL. No 'point' necessarily to be made by their presence.

[ladydiana.livejournal.com]

And in my not so humble opinion, no "point" was made when Worple and Sanguini were introduced.

Here's a newsflash: The MAIN CHARACTERS ARE TEENAGERS. Here's another: The MAJORITY OF PARENTS ARE NOT HOMOSEXUAL. Here's a third: TEENAGERS TEND TO BE CONFUSED IN GENERAL, ESPECIALLY ABOUT THEIR OWN SEXUALITY.

Why then, is Rowling *not focusing on how all of the characters are homosexual* a "failure"?? Even if they are, at that age, a NUMBER OF THEM MAY NOT EVEN KNOW, and of those that are, IT'S NOT A PART OF THE DAMNED STORYLINE!!!

[ladydiana.livejournal.com]

Sorry, and you're not going to like this, but I think this argument is complete and utter CRAP.

Rowling is just barely, BARELY displaying that the characters are even *aware* of sexuality at all, and only the barest hint, and it's not a central plot of the story. Moody's injuries WERE a CENTRAL PART OF THE STORY.

In my high school, my graduating class had 300 people. I know that ONE of them has since either decided he's gay or came to terms with it, but he "appeared" to be straight in high school. Whether because of fear or confusion or indecisiveness, I haven't a clue, nor do I care, because who he sleeps with is none of my damned business.

I think the comment you're objecting to stems from the blindness by the "fandom", the "slashers" and the "shippers", an alarming number of whom are apparently in desperate need of INTENSIVE PSYCHOTHERAPY, ********ARE******** using their writing to make a point about homosexuality. No matter how many times people insist that Harry/Snape "is canon!", when the AUTHOR SAYS IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT. And when upon hearing this announcement, the author is treated with the utmost contempt because she "doesn't know anything about the real characters"...there is a FUCKING PROBLEM.

P-E-R-I-O-D.

I don't know if you've read Anne Rice or not, but in one of her novels, there is an almost unconscionable amount of incest, child rape, child molestation, inbreeding, and gay and bisexual males (I don't recall there being any lesbians). I mean, to the point that it felt like EVERY SINGLE PAGE. And that was one thing, but the prettifying of it, to make it "ok" and "acceptable" behaviour was disturbing.

However, in that novel, it was a CENTRAL PART OF THE PLOT LINE. That's how that family kept their bloodline pure to breed a supernatural creature every 13 generations. She could, potentially, have made it considerably less graphic and less of a FOCUS on the book (i.e. mentioned it without going into several chapter long descriptions of sexual encounters), and she could certainly have championed it a bit less, but it *WAS* a central part of the entire story line.

"Shippers" and "slashers" DO NOT HAVE THIS BENEFIT. All I have EVER seen come out of FanFic in the past five years is gratutious sex with no plotline, usually piss-poorly written, trying to make a statement. And while it used to be a "curious anomaly", it's now taking away from the enjoyment of the original series.

Mentioning someone is gay is one thing. Forcing THE ENTIRE FUCKING CAST AND CHARACTERS TO ALL BE HAVING ROMPING ANAL SEX IN THE CORRIDORS IS ANOTHER ENTIRELY. And until that distinction is understood, there's not much point in further discussion.

[conuly]

You need to calm down NOW. There's no reason to be ranting in ALL CAPS on my journal, on a thread which has been dead for days now. Calm down, and then we'll talk.