*sighs*

[conuly]

So, somebody posted that annoying flashy image saying that "Marriage is not about Race, Religion, National Origin, Gender, Physical Disability, Et Cetera" on a couple of comms I'm in.

Wait... physical disability?

Which is pretty much what I said, prompting the reply that "well, people with mental disabilities have to be screened to make sure that they understand and consent to marriage".

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought that depression was considered a mental disability? And bipolar disorder? And our favorite syndrome, asperger's (let's not get into that debate again, I have a point to make)? And I suppose dyslexia could be considered a mental disability, being as how it's a disability of the mind (though I recognize that this isn't the normal term used), and ADD, and... well, other things. Heck, one could make the case that being in love is a mental disability.

But maybe I'm mistaken.

Comments

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

I think it's a matter of being able to comprehend what marriage means. Obviously, you and I have various things wrong with our brains, but do you call that a mental disability or a mental disorder? I kind of like the latter, as there's a linguistic distinction that makes me happy; there's a difference between not being able to do something and doing something in a weird way.

It's important, though, that people with mental retardation be counselled; ever had a three-year-old kid ask you to marry him? Little kids get on marriage kicks like that all the time, but they don't know what it means. If someone with, say, Down's syndrome is thinking at that child-like level, then real marriage wouldn't be a good idea.

[wakasplat.livejournal.com]

Just because someone tests on an IQ test in a way that is more like most people of a very different age would test, does not mean they have are "thinking on the level of a person of that age" or that they should have fewer or more rights than people who test more average for their own age. I really wish some of Dave Hingsburger's articles on people he knew from institutions who married were online, because I don't have the ability to convey every single nuance of how this 'mental age' stuff has been used against people with mental retardation.

But briefly, people who are adults and test low on IQ tests have a lifetime of experience behind them and are not the same as three-year-olds no matter how low they test. 'Mental age' is a myth and one that has wrecked more lives than it's helped. It's patronizing to assume that someone with a low 'mental age' needs counseling for marriage so that other people would determine whether they're ready for it or not, whereas the tons of other people who aren't ready for marriage (and may not have any disability-related diagnoses at all) are allowed to get married and seriously screw their lives up that way if they want to.

Maybe you have to have that kind of freedom taken away from you before you know how offensive it is. I don't know.

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

Nowhere did I say that I was talking about IQ tests. The only thing an IQ test measures is your ability to take tests. I also didn't say anything about "mental age"; what I meant by "thinking on that child-like level" is not anything about cognitive capabilities in the quantifiable sense but rather whether or not the person in question is capable of understanding and carrying out the responsibilities that come with marriage. I'm sorry if you found the child analogy offensive, but honestly it's the best one I could think of; children simply don't have the capacity to understand some things, and neither do some mentally retarded people. That's why I said counselling was important -- not IQ testing, counselling -- by someone who can do a thorough evaluation of a person's level of comprehension as regards marriage (or living on their own, getting a job, et cetera -- any of these big life responsibilities that, frankly, a lot of "normal" people can't handle).

[wakasplat.livejournal.com]

any of these big life responsibilities that, frankly, a lot of "normal" people can't handle

That's actually the crux of my problem with the whole thing. The rest of what I said was just about the construction of some of the arguments people use around it.

"Normal" people are allowed to take the chance that they can't handle it. Whether they understand that they are taking that chance or not, whether they understand what they are getting into or not, whether they understand what they are doing in any particular way or not.

"Normal" people are not forced by default into counseling before they decide to live on their own, marry, or have a job.

I have no faith in the expertise of an outside-appointed counselor to decide who is ready and who is not. If I had that faith, I wouldn't be where I am now. I have a friend — diagnosed as retarded and autistic among a ton of other things — who is still trapped behind those gatekeepers who say he's not ready for freedom and will never be ready. My main fear is that he'll kill himself since his desire for freedom doesn't match his professionals' belief in his ability to handle it (they are operating out of a very false system), but he has no other means of easy escape.

I've seen the professional gatekeepers at work way too often. They already exist in the developmental disabilities field. And it's frankly none of their business deciding for us which of us who want to marry, move away from our parents, live in whatever living arrangements we want to live in, and so forth. If they have a business at all it should be in (if we even want them to) making our decisions work for us, not in constraining our decisions.

If two adults express a wish to marry each other — and I'm not claiming they'd always know what they're doing, who does? — it shouldn't have to go before someone else who can then say "Sorry, your reasons don't match the ones I would have for you, and your understanding of marriage doesn't match mine." This nearly happened to a relative of mine who was trying to get married. I can't really think of any error disabled people could make in this instance that hasn't been duplicated time and time again by non-disabled people.