Harry's a bit of a jerk, isn't he?

[conuly]

Think about it. In the first book, Harry finds out at the end that Snape saved his life, and never tried to kill him. Then what does he do? Does he thank Snape for saving his life, and for trying to save the world? Does he apologise for the fact that his friends burned him? Nope, he just goes on his merry way, hating Snape.

In the second book, he causes chaos in Snape's class and is involved in the theft of boomslang skin. The potion he makes turns out to be nearly worthless - though it did get Lucius in some trouble. Needless to say, he never apologises.

In the third book, he stuns Snape, and spends a lot of time insulting him behind his back. Okay, Snape deserved a stunning, but he was trying to do a good thing. Well. Okay, he was trying to exact petty revenge on his childhood enemies, but this incidentally happened to (as far as he knew) involve saving Harry, Ron, and Hermione's lives.

Fourth book. More insulting Snape. Lots more. And some spying on the guy. Apparently, Snape has no right to privacy.

Fifth book. He invades Snape's privacy even more by viewing the Pensieve. Does he ever apologise for this? Ever? Does he ever say "Look, you were right about my dad, and I'm sorry he did that to you?" Does he do anything to make up for this enormous transgression? Nope. More insults, snide comments. No wonder he never does well in Potions.

To be fair, Snape's incredibly immature. I mean, c'mon - getting revenge for childhood injuries by picking on the kid son of a dead guy? That's low. Really low. But that's no excuse for Harry to emulate his kindergarten behaviour.

Comments

[leora.livejournal.com]

Well, Snape also dislikes Harry because Harry acts like his father, not just because he is his father's son. Snape is, as my lothario describes him, lawful unpleasant. And Harry is chaotic good. Snape doesn't like rule-breaking and he hates that Harry acts like he can break the rules whenver it's convenient. What's worse, from Snape's point of view, is that Harry ~can~ break the rules. Dumbledore lets Harry get away with massive rule-breaking.

But Snape also goes out of his way to insult and pick on Harry and his friends. He insults Hermione's physical appearance in a way that would get most teachers fired in our world. While Harry should possibly apologize for some mistakes; he really doesn't owe Snape an apology, as Snape has done enough to justify bad treatment.

And quite frankly, I expect the adult to be the adult of the situation. Snape set a tone and Harry followed it. If Harry were a better person, sure he could rise above it. But that's a lot to expect of him, and I think more than should be expected of most people. So, I wouldn't really say he's a bit of a jerk. He's just a bit of a human.

[conuly]

Well, Snape also dislikes Harry because Harry acts like his father, not just because he is his father's son.

Harry doesn't act like his father. His dad, if Snape's memory is accurate, was a bully. Harry's not.

While Harry should possibly apologize for some mistakes; he really doesn't owe Snape an apology, as Snape has done enough to justify bad treatment.

No, he hasn't. He should act a lot better (like an adult) but nobody deserves bad treatment. They sometimes ought to expect it because of how they act, but they don't deserve it.

And quite frankly, I expect the adult to be the adult of the situation. Snape set a tone and Harry followed it. If Harry were a better person, sure he could rise above it. But that's a lot to expect of him, and I think more than should be expected of most people.

First off, Harry's what now, 16? He needs to start acting like a grownup sometime. Secondly, I don't get it. It's fun to be more mature than your adversary, it makes you feel better than they are (and usually infuriates them in a funny, harmless fashion). But instead, Harry's acting like a child in his relations with Snape. He *was* a child, that was 6 years ago when he was 11. Now he's growing up, or is supposed to be. Yes, I know most 16 year olds don't act especially mature, but he's going to have to start acting mature soon, with everything that's about to be thrown at him.

Hm. I think I tangented. Sorry.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Harry Potter is a totally self-centered, unthinking, privileged, apathetic, lazy, idiotic ass.

That's one of the reasons I dislike the movies (don't read the books, I let Liz do that). I would much rather watch The Adventures of Hermione At Hogwarts than a movie about Harry Potter, because I can't STAND Harry Potter.

--Kynn

[leora.livejournal.com]

The movies strip out huge sections of the story and generally show events that happened outside the context of why they happened or what justified them. I agree that I wouldn't like the Harry Potter of the movie. But the movies don't really make sense anyway on their own. Some of the scenes are quite pretty though.

[firingneurons.livejournal.com]

Agreed on the Harry Potter thing, yet I still really like the books. Go figure.

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

I hope you are patching things up with Mommy... *worries*

[conuly]

*nods* Yes, am.


http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/online/code/916642.html

For you.

[adiva_calandia]

I'm inclined to excuse his behavior in the first four books, but I had reeeeal trouble liking him in book 5. Sure, he feels guilty about the Pensieve, but more because he's afraid his dad isn't who he thought he was -- not because he invaded Snape's privacy. Also, to help explain some of Snape's behavior, look at what else was in the Pensieve -- in particular, the image of his parents fighting. I'm guessing Snape grew up in a not-nice environment, and may have started learning the Dark Arts in defense. Then he just decided he liked those more than anything else.

Besides Harry's behavior towards Snape, I thoroughly disliked how he acted through the whole of OotP. Yes, he's grieving; yes, people have not been entirely fair to him. That's still not a reason to yell at your best friends and smash up the office of a man who admires you, and whom you admire.

I'm hoping he'll be a little easier to bear in the next book.

Nice icon, BTW.

[bastardsword.livejournal.com]

agreed. I could like Harry in earlier books, but now, he's just a screaming brat.

But the chance he'll get better is slim. Thus, with George and Fred gone, Ron's the only truly lovable Gryfindor left. Even Hermione, who is scarily like me, isn't all that enjoyable.

-Kimothy

[ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com]

I did think Harry should have apologized about looking in the Pensieve. That was over-the-top (though I can understand the temptation, quite frankly). Also seeing how Snape was treated by his father should have made Harry at least a little more sympathetic towards him. Obviously it showed that Snape did have a real reason to hate his father.

At the end of the first book, sure Harry could have thanked Snape at the end. But at the same time, Snape clearly hated him and at that point, he didn't seem to have any real reason for doing so. I remember from the point of view of a kid how scary a teacher who hates you can be, so I can understand avoiding him on the basis of that, even if he did owe him a thank-you. You could argue that Harry's already faced down much worse than a grumpy teacher by this point, but on the other hand that was under extreme duress where there was a lot depending on it (namely, preventing Voldemort's return). It would probably be harder to motivate oneself to face down someone scary if there wasn't a life or death reason to do so.

In the second book, apologizing to Snape would have probably only gotten him a detention for his troubles, and probably would have landed his friends in trouble as well. I don't think Snape would have let him off with just an "I'm sorry". You could argue that he would have deserved to be punished and I'd agree, but think about it: Harry's a kid. What kid would willingly seek out punishment from a grumpy teacher who hates him? Not many. And Harry, whatever his faults, is very loyal to his friends. I think concern for his friends getting into trouble would hold him back from such a confession as much as concern for himself.

Third book: at this point I don't really think you can blame Harry for talking about Snape behind his back. By this time, Snape's already been behaving horribly to him and his friends for seemingly little reason and let's face it: even the most wonderful, mature person in the world is probably going to bitch to someone about a person so continually treats him unfairly. Finding out that Black tried to kill Snape did make me a lot less sympathetic towards Black though, and towards Dumbledore as well. Actually, I think Dumbledore's treatment of the whole Shrieking Shack incident was pretty fucked up. Black should have been kicked out of Hogwarts, flat out. (I don't think he should have gone to Azkaban because I don't think anyone should go to Azkaban.) And James wasn't really a hero for refusing to be a murderer, he was only finally doing the right thing.

Spying on Snape in the fourth book: at this point it seems like Snape's pretty much trying to get Harry into trouble any chance he can get. From this point of view, spying on him probably seems to Harry like the only course of survival, and he may be right (though Dumbledore would of course never let him be kicked out, Harry probably doesn't realise that).

I already covered what I think of the events in the fifth book. I will end with that for the most part, I can understand, though not always agree with Harry's behavior (especially in the fifth book, like I said, that really did deserve an apology, and it could have been a really great opportunity for Harry to prove to Snape that he really isn't like his father). Harry's immature to be sure, but he's a teenager and I don't really think his behavior is really that much more immature than any other teenager's would be in similar situations. I actually relate far more to the teenage Snape than the teenage Harry, but that's probably a post for another time. I hated James and unless we see a completely different side of him, I probably always will. Snape for his part has hardly always acted admirably either, and as the adult I do think he's under more obligation to.

Okay, that's probably enough for now. Can you tell I used to be obsessed with Harry Potter? ;)

[leora.livejournal.com]

I seriously wonder about Dumbledore. I think the movies do a big disservice to the books by leaving out Dumbledore's actions that seem completely insane. Some of his actions only make sense when you remember that you're not really supposed to be sure he's all there...

And yet, he does seem to act very deliberately. We also are never sure about how much he knows.

But he allows a lot of things to happen that he clearly could prevent. And while he acts likably, I'm not sure I actually like him. Or how decent a person he is.

[deceptica]

Boomslang! You know, I haven't re-read the books since I started studying Dutch, so this was the first time I realized that this means tree-snake. [/random]

[innerbrat]

Yes, Harry's a jerk, but he's not the only one.

On an earlier conversation in your journal, we mentioned that the wizarding world could well have different standards of morality than our own. One of these includes the sanctity of Mind. I detest Harry's violation of Snape's private memories in OotP, but look at where he learned that behaviour from: when he did it to Dumbledore in the fourth book, Dumbledore didn't so much as scold him. Then Dumbledore approved the use of the obliviate charm - a charm I think should be Unforgivable - on Marietta in OotP.
So Harry's behaviour, which I find despicable, have been encouraged by his most powerful role model.

But Snape's a horrible nasty piece of work himself, as I've recently been discussing over on another journal. His deliberate ignoring of the evidence regarding Sirius, particularly when it seems he almost certainly could have established the facts had he bothered (being a Legilimens). He set up another person - a person he had good reason to believe innocent - to be Kissed.

Basically, the whole lot of them are pretty much jerks.

[conuly]

So Harry's behaviour, which I find despicable, have been encouraged by his most powerful role model.

Good point. To support this, think also of Azkaban, which is apparently their ONLY means of legal punishment: a prison guarded by monsters which fuck with your mind.

[targaff.livejournal.com]

This is one aspect of why I've never really liked them - the pattern of "something go wrong, suspect Snape, take it as far as unfeasibly possible and then find Snape had nothing to do with it" is so utterly predictable that I simply can't be bothered with it; in fact the cyclical term-based story form was yawn-inducing enough after two books, let alone 5 (or even 7), but it's not even original - Malory Towers was doing it decades ago, and it's pretty much the same with magic thrown in.

Still, I'll read the books because they're on the shelf: my wife buys them by rote, so it's not like it involves any investment on my part other than time. But I'll read pretty much anything if I'm bored - I even read the Jean Rabe Dragonlance books, so the fact of my reading it is hardly a sign of approval.

Yes, I'm a guy and I read Malory Towers! The horror.

[conuly]

But I'll read pretty much anything if I'm bored - I even read the Jean Rabe Dragonlance books, so the fact of my reading it is hardly a sign of approval.

You and me both.

[maelorin]

snape is my favourite hp character. a good guy who always manages to appear sinister. but then i'm a fan of anti-heros and such-like.

at the end of the day, though, the hp books are readable - but i don't find them brilliant. and they could do with some editing.

i'm awaiting the end of the series - not because i dislike it, but because i'm curious about the ending. and where she will go from there.

[arikatt.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry it took me a while to reply, but I just love this post. I've thought similarly about Harry and Snape, and it amuses me to read all that. *adds to memories*

[ladydiana.livejournal.com]

I think both of their behaviour has been deplorable. Harry, at least, has the benefit of going through puberty, with all the confusion that causes...he's obviously never had a male adult to tell him "well son, you're gonna have all these weird things happen to you and you're gonna act all wierd and wonder WTF is wrong with you". ISTR that he wasn't allowed in "regular" school by his aunt and uncle; one can be pretty well assured that Hogwarts isn't teaching basic biology. :P

Snape's behaviour though, has really been over the top (as has Harry's) for some time and it is tiresome, but then I just remind myself (during this, and many other redundant issues) that these are WRITTEN FOR CHILDREN, and my standards lower. :P

[leora.livejournal.com]

Well, Snape also dislikes Harry because Harry acts like his father, not just because he is his father's son. Snape is, as my lothario describes him, lawful unpleasant. And Harry is chaotic good. Snape doesn't like rule-breaking and he hates that Harry acts like he can break the rules whenver it's convenient. What's worse, from Snape's point of view, is that Harry ~can~ break the rules. Dumbledore lets Harry get away with massive rule-breaking.

But Snape also goes out of his way to insult and pick on Harry and his friends. He insults Hermione's physical appearance in a way that would get most teachers fired in our world. While Harry should possibly apologize for some mistakes; he really doesn't owe Snape an apology, as Snape has done enough to justify bad treatment.

And quite frankly, I expect the adult to be the adult of the situation. Snape set a tone and Harry followed it. If Harry were a better person, sure he could rise above it. But that's a lot to expect of him, and I think more than should be expected of most people. So, I wouldn't really say he's a bit of a jerk. He's just a bit of a human.

[conuly]

Well, Snape also dislikes Harry because Harry acts like his father, not just because he is his father's son.

Harry doesn't act like his father. His dad, if Snape's memory is accurate, was a bully. Harry's not.

While Harry should possibly apologize for some mistakes; he really doesn't owe Snape an apology, as Snape has done enough to justify bad treatment.

No, he hasn't. He should act a lot better (like an adult) but nobody deserves bad treatment. They sometimes ought to expect it because of how they act, but they don't deserve it.

And quite frankly, I expect the adult to be the adult of the situation. Snape set a tone and Harry followed it. If Harry were a better person, sure he could rise above it. But that's a lot to expect of him, and I think more than should be expected of most people.

First off, Harry's what now, 16? He needs to start acting like a grownup sometime. Secondly, I don't get it. It's fun to be more mature than your adversary, it makes you feel better than they are (and usually infuriates them in a funny, harmless fashion). But instead, Harry's acting like a child in his relations with Snape. He *was* a child, that was 6 years ago when he was 11. Now he's growing up, or is supposed to be. Yes, I know most 16 year olds don't act especially mature, but he's going to have to start acting mature soon, with everything that's about to be thrown at him.

Hm. I think I tangented. Sorry.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Harry Potter is a totally self-centered, unthinking, privileged, apathetic, lazy, idiotic ass.

That's one of the reasons I dislike the movies (don't read the books, I let Liz do that). I would much rather watch The Adventures of Hermione At Hogwarts than a movie about Harry Potter, because I can't STAND Harry Potter.

--Kynn

[leora.livejournal.com]

The movies strip out huge sections of the story and generally show events that happened outside the context of why they happened or what justified them. I agree that I wouldn't like the Harry Potter of the movie. But the movies don't really make sense anyway on their own. Some of the scenes are quite pretty though.

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

I hope you are patching things up with Mommy... *worries*

[conuly]

*nods* Yes, am.


http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/online/code/916642.html

For you.

[adiva_calandia]

I'm inclined to excuse his behavior in the first four books, but I had reeeeal trouble liking him in book 5. Sure, he feels guilty about the Pensieve, but more because he's afraid his dad isn't who he thought he was -- not because he invaded Snape's privacy. Also, to help explain some of Snape's behavior, look at what else was in the Pensieve -- in particular, the image of his parents fighting. I'm guessing Snape grew up in a not-nice environment, and may have started learning the Dark Arts in defense. Then he just decided he liked those more than anything else.

Besides Harry's behavior towards Snape, I thoroughly disliked how he acted through the whole of OotP. Yes, he's grieving; yes, people have not been entirely fair to him. That's still not a reason to yell at your best friends and smash up the office of a man who admires you, and whom you admire.

I'm hoping he'll be a little easier to bear in the next book.

Nice icon, BTW.

[bastardsword.livejournal.com]

agreed. I could like Harry in earlier books, but now, he's just a screaming brat.

But the chance he'll get better is slim. Thus, with George and Fred gone, Ron's the only truly lovable Gryfindor left. Even Hermione, who is scarily like me, isn't all that enjoyable.

-Kimothy

[ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com]

I did think Harry should have apologized about looking in the Pensieve. That was over-the-top (though I can understand the temptation, quite frankly). Also seeing how Snape was treated by his father should have made Harry at least a little more sympathetic towards him. Obviously it showed that Snape did have a real reason to hate his father.

At the end of the first book, sure Harry could have thanked Snape at the end. But at the same time, Snape clearly hated him and at that point, he didn't seem to have any real reason for doing so. I remember from the point of view of a kid how scary a teacher who hates you can be, so I can understand avoiding him on the basis of that, even if he did owe him a thank-you. You could argue that Harry's already faced down much worse than a grumpy teacher by this point, but on the other hand that was under extreme duress where there was a lot depending on it (namely, preventing Voldemort's return). It would probably be harder to motivate oneself to face down someone scary if there wasn't a life or death reason to do so.

In the second book, apologizing to Snape would have probably only gotten him a detention for his troubles, and probably would have landed his friends in trouble as well. I don't think Snape would have let him off with just an "I'm sorry". You could argue that he would have deserved to be punished and I'd agree, but think about it: Harry's a kid. What kid would willingly seek out punishment from a grumpy teacher who hates him? Not many. And Harry, whatever his faults, is very loyal to his friends. I think concern for his friends getting into trouble would hold him back from such a confession as much as concern for himself.

Third book: at this point I don't really think you can blame Harry for talking about Snape behind his back. By this time, Snape's already been behaving horribly to him and his friends for seemingly little reason and let's face it: even the most wonderful, mature person in the world is probably going to bitch to someone about a person so continually treats him unfairly. Finding out that Black tried to kill Snape did make me a lot less sympathetic towards Black though, and towards Dumbledore as well. Actually, I think Dumbledore's treatment of the whole Shrieking Shack incident was pretty fucked up. Black should have been kicked out of Hogwarts, flat out. (I don't think he should have gone to Azkaban because I don't think anyone should go to Azkaban.) And James wasn't really a hero for refusing to be a murderer, he was only finally doing the right thing.

Spying on Snape in the fourth book: at this point it seems like Snape's pretty much trying to get Harry into trouble any chance he can get. From this point of view, spying on him probably seems to Harry like the only course of survival, and he may be right (though Dumbledore would of course never let him be kicked out, Harry probably doesn't realise that).

I already covered what I think of the events in the fifth book. I will end with that for the most part, I can understand, though not always agree with Harry's behavior (especially in the fifth book, like I said, that really did deserve an apology, and it could have been a really great opportunity for Harry to prove to Snape that he really isn't like his father). Harry's immature to be sure, but he's a teenager and I don't really think his behavior is really that much more immature than any other teenager's would be in similar situations. I actually relate far more to the teenage Snape than the teenage Harry, but that's probably a post for another time. I hated James and unless we see a completely different side of him, I probably always will. Snape for his part has hardly always acted admirably either, and as the adult I do think he's under more obligation to.

Okay, that's probably enough for now. Can you tell I used to be obsessed with Harry Potter? ;)

[leora.livejournal.com]

I seriously wonder about Dumbledore. I think the movies do a big disservice to the books by leaving out Dumbledore's actions that seem completely insane. Some of his actions only make sense when you remember that you're not really supposed to be sure he's all there...

And yet, he does seem to act very deliberately. We also are never sure about how much he knows.

But he allows a lot of things to happen that he clearly could prevent. And while he acts likably, I'm not sure I actually like him. Or how decent a person he is.

[deceptica]

Boomslang! You know, I haven't re-read the books since I started studying Dutch, so this was the first time I realized that this means tree-snake. [/random]

[innerbrat]

Yes, Harry's a jerk, but he's not the only one.

On an earlier conversation in your journal, we mentioned that the wizarding world could well have different standards of morality than our own. One of these includes the sanctity of Mind. I detest Harry's violation of Snape's private memories in OotP, but look at where he learned that behaviour from: when he did it to Dumbledore in the fourth book, Dumbledore didn't so much as scold him. Then Dumbledore approved the use of the obliviate charm - a charm I think should be Unforgivable - on Marietta in OotP.
So Harry's behaviour, which I find despicable, have been encouraged by his most powerful role model.

But Snape's a horrible nasty piece of work himself, as I've recently been discussing over on another journal. His deliberate ignoring of the evidence regarding Sirius, particularly when it seems he almost certainly could have established the facts had he bothered (being a Legilimens). He set up another person - a person he had good reason to believe innocent - to be Kissed.

Basically, the whole lot of them are pretty much jerks.

[conuly]

So Harry's behaviour, which I find despicable, have been encouraged by his most powerful role model.

Good point. To support this, think also of Azkaban, which is apparently their ONLY means of legal punishment: a prison guarded by monsters which fuck with your mind.

[targaff.livejournal.com]

This is one aspect of why I've never really liked them - the pattern of "something go wrong, suspect Snape, take it as far as unfeasibly possible and then find Snape had nothing to do with it" is so utterly predictable that I simply can't be bothered with it; in fact the cyclical term-based story form was yawn-inducing enough after two books, let alone 5 (or even 7), but it's not even original - Malory Towers was doing it decades ago, and it's pretty much the same with magic thrown in.

Still, I'll read the books because they're on the shelf: my wife buys them by rote, so it's not like it involves any investment on my part other than time. But I'll read pretty much anything if I'm bored - I even read the Jean Rabe Dragonlance books, so the fact of my reading it is hardly a sign of approval.

Yes, I'm a guy and I read Malory Towers! The horror.

[conuly]

But I'll read pretty much anything if I'm bored - I even read the Jean Rabe Dragonlance books, so the fact of my reading it is hardly a sign of approval.

You and me both.

[maelorin]

snape is my favourite hp character. a good guy who always manages to appear sinister. but then i'm a fan of anti-heros and such-like.

at the end of the day, though, the hp books are readable - but i don't find them brilliant. and they could do with some editing.

i'm awaiting the end of the series - not because i dislike it, but because i'm curious about the ending. and where she will go from there.

[arikatt.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry it took me a while to reply, but I just love this post. I've thought similarly about Harry and Snape, and it amuses me to read all that. *adds to memories*

[ladydiana.livejournal.com]

I think both of their behaviour has been deplorable. Harry, at least, has the benefit of going through puberty, with all the confusion that causes...he's obviously never had a male adult to tell him "well son, you're gonna have all these weird things happen to you and you're gonna act all wierd and wonder WTF is wrong with you". ISTR that he wasn't allowed in "regular" school by his aunt and uncle; one can be pretty well assured that Hogwarts isn't teaching basic biology. :P

Snape's behaviour though, has really been over the top (as has Harry's) for some time and it is tiresome, but then I just remind myself (during this, and many other redundant issues) that these are WRITTEN FOR CHILDREN, and my standards lower. :P