Harry's a bit of a jerk, isn't he?

[conuly]

Think about it. In the first book, Harry finds out at the end that Snape saved his life, and never tried to kill him. Then what does he do? Does he thank Snape for saving his life, and for trying to save the world? Does he apologise for the fact that his friends burned him? Nope, he just goes on his merry way, hating Snape.

In the second book, he causes chaos in Snape's class and is involved in the theft of boomslang skin. The potion he makes turns out to be nearly worthless - though it did get Lucius in some trouble. Needless to say, he never apologises.

In the third book, he stuns Snape, and spends a lot of time insulting him behind his back. Okay, Snape deserved a stunning, but he was trying to do a good thing. Well. Okay, he was trying to exact petty revenge on his childhood enemies, but this incidentally happened to (as far as he knew) involve saving Harry, Ron, and Hermione's lives.

Fourth book. More insulting Snape. Lots more. And some spying on the guy. Apparently, Snape has no right to privacy.

Fifth book. He invades Snape's privacy even more by viewing the Pensieve. Does he ever apologise for this? Ever? Does he ever say "Look, you were right about my dad, and I'm sorry he did that to you?" Does he do anything to make up for this enormous transgression? Nope. More insults, snide comments. No wonder he never does well in Potions.

To be fair, Snape's incredibly immature. I mean, c'mon - getting revenge for childhood injuries by picking on the kid son of a dead guy? That's low. Really low. But that's no excuse for Harry to emulate his kindergarten behaviour.

Comments

[leora.livejournal.com]

Well, Snape also dislikes Harry because Harry acts like his father, not just because he is his father's son. Snape is, as my lothario describes him, lawful unpleasant. And Harry is chaotic good. Snape doesn't like rule-breaking and he hates that Harry acts like he can break the rules whenver it's convenient. What's worse, from Snape's point of view, is that Harry ~can~ break the rules. Dumbledore lets Harry get away with massive rule-breaking.

But Snape also goes out of his way to insult and pick on Harry and his friends. He insults Hermione's physical appearance in a way that would get most teachers fired in our world. While Harry should possibly apologize for some mistakes; he really doesn't owe Snape an apology, as Snape has done enough to justify bad treatment.

And quite frankly, I expect the adult to be the adult of the situation. Snape set a tone and Harry followed it. If Harry were a better person, sure he could rise above it. But that's a lot to expect of him, and I think more than should be expected of most people. So, I wouldn't really say he's a bit of a jerk. He's just a bit of a human.

[conuly]

Well, Snape also dislikes Harry because Harry acts like his father, not just because he is his father's son.

Harry doesn't act like his father. His dad, if Snape's memory is accurate, was a bully. Harry's not.

While Harry should possibly apologize for some mistakes; he really doesn't owe Snape an apology, as Snape has done enough to justify bad treatment.

No, he hasn't. He should act a lot better (like an adult) but nobody deserves bad treatment. They sometimes ought to expect it because of how they act, but they don't deserve it.

And quite frankly, I expect the adult to be the adult of the situation. Snape set a tone and Harry followed it. If Harry were a better person, sure he could rise above it. But that's a lot to expect of him, and I think more than should be expected of most people.

First off, Harry's what now, 16? He needs to start acting like a grownup sometime. Secondly, I don't get it. It's fun to be more mature than your adversary, it makes you feel better than they are (and usually infuriates them in a funny, harmless fashion). But instead, Harry's acting like a child in his relations with Snape. He *was* a child, that was 6 years ago when he was 11. Now he's growing up, or is supposed to be. Yes, I know most 16 year olds don't act especially mature, but he's going to have to start acting mature soon, with everything that's about to be thrown at him.

Hm. I think I tangented. Sorry.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Harry Potter is a totally self-centered, unthinking, privileged, apathetic, lazy, idiotic ass.

That's one of the reasons I dislike the movies (don't read the books, I let Liz do that). I would much rather watch The Adventures of Hermione At Hogwarts than a movie about Harry Potter, because I can't STAND Harry Potter.

--Kynn

[leora.livejournal.com]

He's 15 in Order of the Phoenix.

And part of what Rowling is doing in the books, part of ~what they are~ is that Harry is not particularly more mature or intelligent than a normal child his age. He's one of the most average heroes I've ever seen in a book. And his flaws are part of the point of his story.

So, yes, he acts like an immature git. But most 15 year old boys are immature gits.

I don't think he's a jerk, because that implies that he is worse than you would expect of a normal person of that age in that situation. He's just not better.

And yes, Harry is not his father. He doesn't have all of his father's faults. But he has one of them that snape truly detests. And in that respect, it's not just Snape taking it out on Harry because he's his father's son, but because he acts like his father's son.

I agree that Snape is not treated fairly or well. I just think it's reasonable. And if you're going to work with kids, you need to be prepared for kids acting like kids.

I don't think anyone should have a child unless they can handle their precious bundle o' joy at some point shouting at them, "I hate you - I hate you - You're the worst parent ever - You've ruined my life!" and then slamming a door.

[leora.livejournal.com]

The movies strip out huge sections of the story and generally show events that happened outside the context of why they happened or what justified them. I agree that I wouldn't like the Harry Potter of the movie. But the movies don't really make sense anyway on their own. Some of the scenes are quite pretty though.

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

I hope you are patching things up with Mommy... *worries*

[firingneurons.livejournal.com]

Agreed on the Harry Potter thing, yet I still really like the books. Go figure.

[moggymania.livejournal.com]

Exactly my thoughts... (I read the books, saw at least one or two of the movies on DVD but not all of them. I didn't bother seeing them in the theater, needless to say.)

[conuly]

*nods* Yes, am.


http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/online/code/916642.html

For you.

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

Less time online, more time at sink, m'kay?

[conuly]

DID dishes.

[adiva_calandia]

I'm inclined to excuse his behavior in the first four books, but I had reeeeal trouble liking him in book 5. Sure, he feels guilty about the Pensieve, but more because he's afraid his dad isn't who he thought he was -- not because he invaded Snape's privacy. Also, to help explain some of Snape's behavior, look at what else was in the Pensieve -- in particular, the image of his parents fighting. I'm guessing Snape grew up in a not-nice environment, and may have started learning the Dark Arts in defense. Then he just decided he liked those more than anything else.

Besides Harry's behavior towards Snape, I thoroughly disliked how he acted through the whole of OotP. Yes, he's grieving; yes, people have not been entirely fair to him. That's still not a reason to yell at your best friends and smash up the office of a man who admires you, and whom you admire.

I'm hoping he'll be a little easier to bear in the next book.

Nice icon, BTW.

[ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com]

I did think Harry should have apologized about looking in the Pensieve. That was over-the-top (though I can understand the temptation, quite frankly). Also seeing how Snape was treated by his father should have made Harry at least a little more sympathetic towards him. Obviously it showed that Snape did have a real reason to hate his father.

At the end of the first book, sure Harry could have thanked Snape at the end. But at the same time, Snape clearly hated him and at that point, he didn't seem to have any real reason for doing so. I remember from the point of view of a kid how scary a teacher who hates you can be, so I can understand avoiding him on the basis of that, even if he did owe him a thank-you. You could argue that Harry's already faced down much worse than a grumpy teacher by this point, but on the other hand that was under extreme duress where there was a lot depending on it (namely, preventing Voldemort's return). It would probably be harder to motivate oneself to face down someone scary if there wasn't a life or death reason to do so.

In the second book, apologizing to Snape would have probably only gotten him a detention for his troubles, and probably would have landed his friends in trouble as well. I don't think Snape would have let him off with just an "I'm sorry". You could argue that he would have deserved to be punished and I'd agree, but think about it: Harry's a kid. What kid would willingly seek out punishment from a grumpy teacher who hates him? Not many. And Harry, whatever his faults, is very loyal to his friends. I think concern for his friends getting into trouble would hold him back from such a confession as much as concern for himself.

Third book: at this point I don't really think you can blame Harry for talking about Snape behind his back. By this time, Snape's already been behaving horribly to him and his friends for seemingly little reason and let's face it: even the most wonderful, mature person in the world is probably going to bitch to someone about a person so continually treats him unfairly. Finding out that Black tried to kill Snape did make me a lot less sympathetic towards Black though, and towards Dumbledore as well. Actually, I think Dumbledore's treatment of the whole Shrieking Shack incident was pretty fucked up. Black should have been kicked out of Hogwarts, flat out. (I don't think he should have gone to Azkaban because I don't think anyone should go to Azkaban.) And James wasn't really a hero for refusing to be a murderer, he was only finally doing the right thing.

Spying on Snape in the fourth book: at this point it seems like Snape's pretty much trying to get Harry into trouble any chance he can get. From this point of view, spying on him probably seems to Harry like the only course of survival, and he may be right (though Dumbledore would of course never let him be kicked out, Harry probably doesn't realise that).

I already covered what I think of the events in the fifth book. I will end with that for the most part, I can understand, though not always agree with Harry's behavior (especially in the fifth book, like I said, that really did deserve an apology, and it could have been a really great opportunity for Harry to prove to Snape that he really isn't like his father). Harry's immature to be sure, but he's a teenager and I don't really think his behavior is really that much more immature than any other teenager's would be in similar situations. I actually relate far more to the teenage Snape than the teenage Harry, but that's probably a post for another time. I hated James and unless we see a completely different side of him, I probably always will. Snape for his part has hardly always acted admirably either, and as the adult I do think he's under more obligation to.

Okay, that's probably enough for now. Can you tell I used to be obsessed with Harry Potter? ;)

[deceptica]

Boomslang! You know, I haven't re-read the books since I started studying Dutch, so this was the first time I realized that this means tree-snake. [/random]

[innerbrat]

Yes, Harry's a jerk, but he's not the only one.

On an earlier conversation in your journal, we mentioned that the wizarding world could well have different standards of morality than our own. One of these includes the sanctity of Mind. I detest Harry's violation of Snape's private memories in OotP, but look at where he learned that behaviour from: when he did it to Dumbledore in the fourth book, Dumbledore didn't so much as scold him. Then Dumbledore approved the use of the obliviate charm - a charm I think should be Unforgivable - on Marietta in OotP.
So Harry's behaviour, which I find despicable, have been encouraged by his most powerful role model.

But Snape's a horrible nasty piece of work himself, as I've recently been discussing over on another journal. His deliberate ignoring of the evidence regarding Sirius, particularly when it seems he almost certainly could have established the facts had he bothered (being a Legilimens). He set up another person - a person he had good reason to believe innocent - to be Kissed.

Basically, the whole lot of them are pretty much jerks.

[targaff.livejournal.com]

This is one aspect of why I've never really liked them - the pattern of "something go wrong, suspect Snape, take it as far as unfeasibly possible and then find Snape had nothing to do with it" is so utterly predictable that I simply can't be bothered with it; in fact the cyclical term-based story form was yawn-inducing enough after two books, let alone 5 (or even 7), but it's not even original - Malory Towers was doing it decades ago, and it's pretty much the same with magic thrown in.

Still, I'll read the books because they're on the shelf: my wife buys them by rote, so it's not like it involves any investment on my part other than time. But I'll read pretty much anything if I'm bored - I even read the Jean Rabe Dragonlance books, so the fact of my reading it is hardly a sign of approval.

Yes, I'm a guy and I read Malory Towers! The horror.

[maelorin]

snape is my favourite hp character. a good guy who always manages to appear sinister. but then i'm a fan of anti-heros and such-like.

at the end of the day, though, the hp books are readable - but i don't find them brilliant. and they could do with some editing.

i'm awaiting the end of the series - not because i dislike it, but because i'm curious about the ending. and where she will go from there.

[conuly]

So Harry's behaviour, which I find despicable, have been encouraged by his most powerful role model.

Good point. To support this, think also of Azkaban, which is apparently their ONLY means of legal punishment: a prison guarded by monsters which fuck with your mind.

[conuly]

But I'll read pretty much anything if I'm bored - I even read the Jean Rabe Dragonlance books, so the fact of my reading it is hardly a sign of approval.

You and me both.

[innerbrat]

At least Dumbledore doesn't approve of Dementors, but I think it's probably because he doesn't trust them more than he disapproves of the artifical creation of a permanent state of chronic depression.

...

The more I think about this, the more I'm glad I'm a muggle.

[conuly]

Definitely. I trust my mind, pretty much, and I'd like to keep it that way.

[bastardsword.livejournal.com]

agreed. I could like Harry in earlier books, but now, he's just a screaming brat.

But the chance he'll get better is slim. Thus, with George and Fred gone, Ron's the only truly lovable Gryfindor left. Even Hermione, who is scarily like me, isn't all that enjoyable.

-Kimothy

[bridgetester.livejournal.com]

Let alone Snape's treatment of Neville (who needs encouragement) and Hermione, who only wants to learn. Snape is not a nice person, although he's done many good things, and imperfect Harry does not treat him as such. It's really difficult to treat someone nicely who's horrible to you, and Harry doesn't have that level of maturity.

Additionally, Snape is not a good teacher. He terrifies most of his students and favors the others in such a fashion that they learn next to nothing.

[adiva_calandia]

Hermione has her moments. I loved it when she explained girls to Harry and Ron.

What about Ginny? She's rather loveable. Heck, she even had a character in book 5! Or Neville. . . .

[leora.livejournal.com]

Actually, I fully expect him to get better, Book 5 was a thorough exploration of being 15, with the hormonal turmoil, handling everything badly, fighting with everyone, etc. I expect book 6 to start exploring accepting responsibility and growing up. Of course, Rowling may well disappoint me. I didn't like book 5 because it was poorly written, bloated, and every "discovery" in it was anticlimactic. But I've been reserving judgement on the series until I see how all 7 turn out.

I just hope she lets someone edit book 6.

But I do think she'll let Harry go back to acting human. And I do think Harry's behaviors are a decent portrayal of a reasonably common way of being 15.