I'd like to improve my knowledge of music theory

[conuly]

so as to hopefully improve my piano skills. I can read music, and play the melody line of any song I can sing by ear (and switch it into another key if I like) and I've never understood how people can play a wrong note and neither hear nor feel it, but that's about it.

Any advice, specific recommendations for self-teaching?

Comments

[siderea]

Advice:

1) when searching use "music theory" rather than "musical theory".

2) Music theory is much more learnable when it's taught in conjunction with actual music making, as opposed to a bunch of facts one memorizes (or tries to, anyways). But this means going much, much more slowly - but I think it's worth it, because then one understands it for real, and not just as weakly held semantic knowledge.

3) Of all instruments, the piano (well, all full keyboards) is widely regarded as the easiest one at which to learn theory. (If you find yourself thinking, "Why should it matter which instrument one uses while learning theory??", see #2 above!)


ETA Oh, and 4) Back in the day, we had to learn this stuff out of silent books and pay dearly for direct instruction from a human who was copresent with us in both time and space. Now, there's YouTube.

[conuly]

The slow way is always the better way, I know, I know :(

[siderea]

At least in this case, it's not unfun!

What kind of piano music do you like to play?

[conuly]

Mostly, classical, but I'm definitely intermediate in my capabilities. It's been a while, and I was always self-taught. So really the answer is "whatever I can manage".

[siderea]

Oh, that actually makes things somewhat easier. Most formal music theory instruction is either explicitly for classical music, or not, but based on theory for classical music.

[conuly]

Yup, I worked that one out already :)

I cannot improvise even a little. Our music teacher in elementary used to have us improvise and I'd always just freeze up. I hated that.

[siderea]

Oh! I have a resource for you on this.... somewhere. Let me poke around and get back to you.

[conuly]

Back in the day, we had to learn this stuff out of silent books and pay dearly for direct instruction from a human who was copresent with us in both time and space. Now, there's YouTube.

Yes, but which books and which youtube videos?

[siderea]

You have no idea how much I wish I knew the citation for my childhood music theory textbook.

And I had a theory teacher, so can't help you with YouTube.

[conuly]

You have no idea how much I wish I knew the citation for my childhood music theory textbook.

Hm. Well, if you know when you used it, and any trivial details like the color of the cover, I can try asking at a find-that-book community. Mind, I always find more books than get found for me, but it's worth a shot.

[siderea]

It was a hardcover, cloth cover was very dark navy blue. Acquired it I think around age 8, so about 1979. Weird format: first ~50% was biographies of important classical composers, second 50% was music theory instruction.

I have no idea if it was any good, since it was used as an aid by an actual instructor who may have had all the valuable actual music theory in her head.

[conuly]

I have no idea if it was any good, since it was used as an aid by an actual instructor who may have had all the valuable actual music theory in her head.

Ay, there's the rub.

[bibliofile]

Could it have been this one?

[siderea]

Clearly not....?

[angelofthenorth]

Abrsm produce some graded books - I learnt on them, mostly self taught and can recommend them

[conuly]

Do they use UK words instead of American words for things like whole notes etc?

[angelofthenorth]

My books have both systems in. They tend to use the international standards. I started doing the optional theory grades but they were obsessed with bach so I stopped.

[altamira16]

favoritebean is a musician, and I hope she has time to stop in and help.

[siderea]

Also, FYI, a lot flies under the banner of "music theory", including "this is a whole-note" level basics. When you say you can read, how music literate are you?

[conuly]

I can manage the staff without having to double check or use a mnemonic but it gets tricky when we go off the staff and start adding notes above or below. I can more or less sight sing, but only relatively - I might be singing in a different scale than what's actually indicated unless I get clued in to the first note. (And for whatever reason, I find it super hard to sight sing anything in minor scales unless I've heard the song before and am just using the notes as a memory aid - it's like a weird mental gap. Can't sing a minor scale either.)

[siderea]

You say "the staff": full piano staff, both treble and bass? Because you can't get very far in music theory, as it's usually taught, without being fluent in bass clef.

[conuly]

Yes... again, until we drop off the staff in either direction. Get me above middle c in bass and I'm stuck counting.

This is extremely frustrating and I'm dismally realizing the only solution is more practice.

[siderea]

This is really not worth practicing - it's not a big lacuna. It would be nice to be able to read fluently to two ledger lines in either directions, but more than that everyone counts.

Far, far more useful would be practicing your minor scales. Being able to sing a minor scale will actually be helpful to you.

If someone asked you to play (at the piano) a minor scale in an arbitrary key - say, "Play an A# minor scale!" – would you be able to figure out how to do that?

(This is an assessment question. If not, you need to start at learning your scales and keys.)

[conuly]

Well, sure. You start at A# and hit the right notes that sound right. I can play minor scales and major ones starting at any note, I just can't sing the minor scales. I get lost halfway through and end up in some monstrous hybrid. I don't know why I can do it on the piano but not with my voice, but I also find it's easier to play out tricky passages on the keyboard before I try to sing them. Often there's something I can't sing until I play the melody, and then it's simple.

[angelofthenorth]

Melodic minor or harmonic minor? There are two....

[siderea]

Not helpful.

[angelofthenorth]

It's one of the first things you learn in the British (abrsm) system of theory. For practical You learnt one minor and stuck to it. For theory we had to know both, and which one you thought of as "right" mattered so you learned them systematically because grade V practical required both and not to get confused. Knowing both also helped me with improvisation.

(frozen)

[siderea]

NOT THE PLACE. NOT THE TIME. BACK OFF.

(frozen)

[conuly]

You're a doll, but I promise, I can defend myself from too much information if necessary.

[conuly]

And we just went over my head.

[siderea]

Go check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObBCOgLCOkE

Tell me what you think. Like, is this useful?

[conuly]

It covered what I already knew, but the format wasn't bad. Lemme click around myself and see what he's got that I don't know.

[siderea]

Try this next:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdEcLQ_RQPY

ETA: May be too basic, but I do like his attitude.

ETA2: I take this recommendation back; I just was watching through his next video in the series, and he uses non-standard notation and has some errors. Augh.

Good quality free instruction is hard to find.

[conuly]

Yes, it's probably the word "free" that's the problem!

I didn't watch it yet, though, because I was first making my mother a bialy, then making her some tea, then keeping Moonpie from mauling a hapless guest. I better run and stop her again. Annoying animal.

[conuly]

Anyway, if I get really confused I can always mutter "wholestep, halfstep, wholestep, wholestep..." until I get to the end. This is silly, though. Come to think of it, I can't reliably sing a chromatic scale either, though I should certainly hope I don't need help playing that!

[sonia]

Me too! About having trouble sight-singing minor scales, but I can do it if I already have the melody in my head.

[conuly]

And I like singing songs in minor keys! I just... need to hear them first.

[sonia]

A while ago, I bought "Practical Theory Complete: A self-instruction music theory course" by Sandy Feldstein. I worked through some of it and liked it. (Thanks for causing me to dig it out. Maybe I'll work through more of it!) It's fairly basic, though. I don't need to be told what a sixteenth note is, but it is helpful to practice reading notes on the bass clef.

I happened on this website: https://www.musical-u.com/learn/ because I was looking up ear-training and found their Relative Pitch app, which is reasonably useful. I used their Sing True app some too.
https://www.musical-u.com/apps/

I keep buying books on ear training and sight singing and transcription etc and then not using them...

[conuly]

I keep buying books on ear training and sight singing and transcription etc and then not using them...

Classic problem!

As the homeschoolers all have to learn again every year, the best curriculum is the one you actually use.

[calimac]

If your learning style is at all like mine, I'd suggest using a combination of a textbook and videos. The textbook will give you harder grounding than the videos will, even if they cover the same material, while the videos will give the practicum that you'd get in a classroom.

I learned theory from the (then-)standard college textbook, Walter Piston's Harmony. But it was pretty grisly and academic, so I'd not recommend it for self-teaching.

[antisoppist]

An adult learner recommended www.mymusictheory.com to me for my son, who taught himself to play the piano by ear and youtube but had massive theory gaps. However, it is UK-based, built around the UK theory grade exams, and is not free, which makes it less than ideal for you. But some of it is free and it might give you pointers as to which bits you are missing and what you need to be searching for.

[conuly]

Thanks.

[thekumquat]

The classic UK book is this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rudiments-Theory-Music-syllabus-examinations/dp/B0000CJVXV

which has the merit of being actually pocket sized so got read during other boring lessons. Then there's an exercise book for each grade. Got me to a distinction in grade 7 theory at the same time as a fail in grade 2 practical - I have no ear, suboptimal hand control, and in retrospect should have stuck to an instrument where you play one note at a time - but the theory and composition was cool.

[negothick]

I still like How to Play the Piano Despite Years of Lessons--didn't realize it's nearly 30 years old. Plenty of Used copies around. How to Play the Piano Despite Years of Lessons: What Music Is and How to Make It at Home Paperback
https://www.amazon.com/Play-Piano-Despite-Years-Lessons/dp/0385142633

[conuly]

Thanks.