In which I no doubt am preaching to the converted

[conuly]

I'm not a Biblical scholar. I don't even know that much about Christianity. I do, however, have a vague idea that somewhere in the New Testament Jesus says "the most important rule is that you love each other". I can think of several quotes which follow that theme of loving one another. Unfortunately, I can't cite chapter and verse.

I *can*, however, tell you where the most commonly quoted verse in the Bible comes from. And it's not the New Testament. Yes, it's that one that may or may not mean that God Hates Gays (thank you, crazy person!), and it's right by the verses that say God Hates Shrimp and God Hates Mixed Fabrics. Nobody worries about those, I guess.

Now, here's a problem. Either God is a hypocrite, or somebody is mistaken about what God really cares about. Or maybe God changed his mind. That's possible, isn't it? Well, if God can change his mind, wouldn't it be more reasonable to follow his more recent (not to mention explicit) commandments instead of the older, vaguer ones?

Comments

Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here--

[marveen.livejournal.com]

--but remember, the questions you ask in the last paragraph require THOUGHT.

If you ask someone why homosexuals are bad, you usually get the Leviticus answer. When you ask why Shrimp and Poly/Cotton blends aren't bad anymore, you usually get "_____ says so." (Wherein _____ is a minister, or priest, or author who told the respondent what to think.)

Most "Christians" don't become Christian because of their keen, analytical thought processes and the chance to exercise their incisive logic during church, after all.

Re: Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here--

[marveen.livejournal.com]

And oh yeah, I was raised Baptist, so if you want chapter and verse I can supply it to you at the drop of an epistle.

[georgiapeachy.livejournal.com]

I always answer things wrong, but here's what I know

Acts 10:9-18
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. 17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

To me this means the laws of the Old Testament are nullified since Peter is being encouraged by God to consume animals that are by the laws of the Old Testament completely unclean. Other people take this verse to mean that the gentiles could now be saved and in context this makes sense, but that would also be counter to Old Testament law as well. So basically the Leviticus gays are unclean is not even valid in my view.

The love command is John 31

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

A lot of Christians think this means only to love other Christians though, which is a shame since Matthew says 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" and Christians who insist on hating those they disagree with are not really presenting themselves favorably.

[conuly]

Thanks, I'm way too lazy to break out the Bible all the time.

[stejcruetekie.livejournal.com]

Actually, I would have thought the most commonly quoted verse was John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

Or maybe Psalm 23 - The Lord is my shepherd.... That would be in the Old Testament.

The Golden Rule is found in Matthew 22:37-40- He said to them, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and firt commandment. And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

As a Christian, we're called to love everyone. That's why, for example, I can't fight in a war - that would be killing my neighbors, yes? And it's why I don't hate gays - I have quite a few openly gay or bisexual friends, and they're some of the coolest people I know.

But, as a Christian, I cannot support their homosexuality. The bible is fairly clear on this topic, in BOTH the Old and New Testament. (And forget that Sodom and Gomorrah verse, that's the weakest of them all, I don't know why it's cited so much). Some people try to interpret the verses differently - I think you have do to some serious re-interpretation to come out with something that allows or even promotes homosexuality. If you're going to go that far, why not just re-interpret the whole bible? Hell, just throw it all away!

Like I said - I have gay friends. They're awesome. But I can't support that particular aspect of them.

[ladytalon.livejournal.com]

I only ever see Leviticus cited, lately. What verses in the New Testament are against homosexuality? I am genuinely curious, if not Christian.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I believe Paul wrote most of them, which in my eyes makes them automatically suspect.

(Paul's writings occasionally directly contradicted the teachings of Christ.)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

You beat me to it!

::Rcovering Catholic here.::

I second the suspectness of Paul's writing. He just never seemed like a very pleasant fellow. Ever.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

Good post...and I'm similar in my view of homosexuals. I figure that if they're not hurting others and are consentual, it's none of my business. I don't promote or particularly agree with what they're doing, but I'm not going to "damn" them for it. I see it as a disorder and not a choice, but it doesn't make the person any less human or less worthy of love and respect. They have rights just as we all do. It's not my place to condemn them for it, since I am also admittedly "unclean" in my humanity in other ways. I feel the government should allow them rights though and stay out of "unusual" consentual relationships that don't harm others. Government-sanctioned marriages weren't in the Bible evn for straight couples.

I try very hard to love people even if I don't like them. I try to see the good and the reasons for their worse aspects, though sometimes someone's annoying or outright repulsive qualities make it so that I'm better off not being around them to endure the unnecessary torment.

Jesus didn't come to nullify the old laws: he came to strengthen them, but not in the way we immediately think of that statement. If someone lives life in a way that shows love for "neighbors" and for God, that is what I feel is most important. I also easily tolerate and understand those who don't believe in God but do make a sincere effort to love and respect others. Hatred, intentional crassness, violence, and general nastiness are qualities I try to avoid in myself and in others.

I'm a little wary of Paul, but he was certainly on the right track. If the 10 Commandments say it and Jesus says it, I try my best to follow it. The rest I take as historical, symbolic, and with a conscience-winded grain of salt since people aren't perfect -- including those who wrote and compiled the books in the Bible.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Because it's a lot easier to do the same thing your parents did, who in turn did what their parents did... and believed what they believed. I know there's often a case of "my family was this way and I broke from the mold." But really it's not that common. My grandparents tried to raise me Catholic, and one of the major factors of their familiar is my father's agnosticism, and my mom telling me "Maybe it's just not for you. There are plenty of other religions. You just have to find the right one for you." Which, as a Catholic, I call a pretty open minded move.

I always considered that a lot of things got lost in translation between God and people. Like all the, you know, hate issues. And the "petty sins" (homosexuality, etc). But even when I was little God seemed like the ultimate Libertarian. "I love you and accept you for who you are." I just had a hard time reconciling the issue of this loving God who disapproved of such pointless things like who you slept with (beyond adultery, because that's just mean, even to God!) So I attribute those things to the pettiness of man, and the clinging to it, along with the "I'm friends with ________, so that absolves me when I talk about how dirty they are!" rather than to God.

I don't think that answered your question, but it's 1:30 in the morning and it's my two cents.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Failure, not familiar.

Oh, my brain is fried. Too many Oreos and too much Neil Gaiman will do that to ya.

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

I've wondered about that too, does the New Testament trump the Old Testament, or what? I haven't been able to get a straight answer from a Christian on that one. Jews don't have to worry about the New Testament ;)

Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here--

[marveen.livejournal.com]

--but remember, the questions you ask in the last paragraph require THOUGHT.

If you ask someone why homosexuals are bad, you usually get the Leviticus answer. When you ask why Shrimp and Poly/Cotton blends aren't bad anymore, you usually get "_____ says so." (Wherein _____ is a minister, or priest, or author who told the respondent what to think.)

Most "Christians" don't become Christian because of their keen, analytical thought processes and the chance to exercise their incisive logic during church, after all.

Re: Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here--

[marveen.livejournal.com]

And oh yeah, I was raised Baptist, so if you want chapter and verse I can supply it to you at the drop of an epistle.

[georgiapeachy.livejournal.com]

I always answer things wrong, but here's what I know

Acts 10:9-18
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. 17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

To me this means the laws of the Old Testament are nullified since Peter is being encouraged by God to consume animals that are by the laws of the Old Testament completely unclean. Other people take this verse to mean that the gentiles could now be saved and in context this makes sense, but that would also be counter to Old Testament law as well. So basically the Leviticus gays are unclean is not even valid in my view.

The love command is John 31

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

A lot of Christians think this means only to love other Christians though, which is a shame since Matthew says 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" and Christians who insist on hating those they disagree with are not really presenting themselves favorably.

[conuly]

Thanks, I'm way too lazy to break out the Bible all the time.

[stejcruetekie.livejournal.com]

Actually, I would have thought the most commonly quoted verse was John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

Or maybe Psalm 23 - The Lord is my shepherd.... That would be in the Old Testament.

The Golden Rule is found in Matthew 22:37-40- He said to them, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and firt commandment. And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

As a Christian, we're called to love everyone. That's why, for example, I can't fight in a war - that would be killing my neighbors, yes? And it's why I don't hate gays - I have quite a few openly gay or bisexual friends, and they're some of the coolest people I know.

But, as a Christian, I cannot support their homosexuality. The bible is fairly clear on this topic, in BOTH the Old and New Testament. (And forget that Sodom and Gomorrah verse, that's the weakest of them all, I don't know why it's cited so much). Some people try to interpret the verses differently - I think you have do to some serious re-interpretation to come out with something that allows or even promotes homosexuality. If you're going to go that far, why not just re-interpret the whole bible? Hell, just throw it all away!

Like I said - I have gay friends. They're awesome. But I can't support that particular aspect of them.

[ladytalon.livejournal.com]

I only ever see Leviticus cited, lately. What verses in the New Testament are against homosexuality? I am genuinely curious, if not Christian.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I believe Paul wrote most of them, which in my eyes makes them automatically suspect.

(Paul's writings occasionally directly contradicted the teachings of Christ.)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

You beat me to it!

::Rcovering Catholic here.::

I second the suspectness of Paul's writing. He just never seemed like a very pleasant fellow. Ever.

[fjorab-teke.livejournal.com]

Good post...and I'm similar in my view of homosexuals. I figure that if they're not hurting others and are consentual, it's none of my business. I don't promote or particularly agree with what they're doing, but I'm not going to "damn" them for it. I see it as a disorder and not a choice, but it doesn't make the person any less human or less worthy of love and respect. They have rights just as we all do. It's not my place to condemn them for it, since I am also admittedly "unclean" in my humanity in other ways. I feel the government should allow them rights though and stay out of "unusual" consentual relationships that don't harm others. Government-sanctioned marriages weren't in the Bible evn for straight couples.

I try very hard to love people even if I don't like them. I try to see the good and the reasons for their worse aspects, though sometimes someone's annoying or outright repulsive qualities make it so that I'm better off not being around them to endure the unnecessary torment.

Jesus didn't come to nullify the old laws: he came to strengthen them, but not in the way we immediately think of that statement. If someone lives life in a way that shows love for "neighbors" and for God, that is what I feel is most important. I also easily tolerate and understand those who don't believe in God but do make a sincere effort to love and respect others. Hatred, intentional crassness, violence, and general nastiness are qualities I try to avoid in myself and in others.

I'm a little wary of Paul, but he was certainly on the right track. If the 10 Commandments say it and Jesus says it, I try my best to follow it. The rest I take as historical, symbolic, and with a conscience-winded grain of salt since people aren't perfect -- including those who wrote and compiled the books in the Bible.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Because it's a lot easier to do the same thing your parents did, who in turn did what their parents did... and believed what they believed. I know there's often a case of "my family was this way and I broke from the mold." But really it's not that common. My grandparents tried to raise me Catholic, and one of the major factors of their familiar is my father's agnosticism, and my mom telling me "Maybe it's just not for you. There are plenty of other religions. You just have to find the right one for you." Which, as a Catholic, I call a pretty open minded move.

I always considered that a lot of things got lost in translation between God and people. Like all the, you know, hate issues. And the "petty sins" (homosexuality, etc). But even when I was little God seemed like the ultimate Libertarian. "I love you and accept you for who you are." I just had a hard time reconciling the issue of this loving God who disapproved of such pointless things like who you slept with (beyond adultery, because that's just mean, even to God!) So I attribute those things to the pettiness of man, and the clinging to it, along with the "I'm friends with ________, so that absolves me when I talk about how dirty they are!" rather than to God.

I don't think that answered your question, but it's 1:30 in the morning and it's my two cents.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

Failure, not familiar.

Oh, my brain is fried. Too many Oreos and too much Neil Gaiman will do that to ya.

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

I've wondered about that too, does the New Testament trump the Old Testament, or what? I haven't been able to get a straight answer from a Christian on that one. Jews don't have to worry about the New Testament ;)