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conuly
I'm not sure how I found this post, but you can go read it:
My life as a daughter of Christian Patriarchy
This woman has a blog in which she talks a lot about leaving her Quiverfull family and becoming an atheist and all that.
The post is okay, but then there's the comments. Or rather - The Comment, by Mr. "I'm gonna tell you what you should have posted".
Libby, it sounds like you had a pretty darn great childhood by your account. Among other things, you learned to be hardworking and selfless, and apparently, you have are now a well-educated, thoughtful person who cares about others. These things don’t come naturally. You have your parents to thank in large part, and their choice in how to raise you.
Yes, and this is probably part of why she's still, from what I can ascertain, in touch with her parents instead of having cut them out of her life completely. Plenty of people raised outside of this sort of environment are hardworking, selfless, and well-educated. (And lots of them raised inside this movement specifically aren't very well-educated. She's not making that one up!)
Before going on your suggested crusade (that is, the crusade he just made up right now), I encourage you to meditate more on these things, including what you are implicitly saying about the women who chose this way of life. It comes across as terribly arrogant because the implication is that their way of life, their total self-giving to their families, the physical, mental, and emotional toil they put into raising large families and, on top of that, schooling them, is somehow less valid, less noble than pursuing a career in, say, advertising (or any other such occupation).
Except she never said any such thing. And if you go ahead and read her blog, she never says any such thing there either. She hasn't posted much yet, it's not that long to read. At most, the closest she comes to saying that is saying that girls in these families don't HAVE a choice to stay home. Their choices are made for them. That's not remotely the same as saying that staying home with your children is a bad choice.
Being a man, I am truly humbled by these women. In my estimation, their vocation as mothers and educators is far more noble than nearly any occupation I might choose (I happen to be in software). (And isn't he lucky that he never is going to HAVE to choose to stay home and raise all his lots and lots of kids himself?) After reading your post this morning, I was downstairs, and my wife was giving herself in teaching our children. It honestly made me quite angry that you denigrated her in this way. I can’t imagine how your mom and sister must feel when you look down on them and treat their choice as unworthy of women.
I can't imagine how your wife must feel when you make things up and put them in her mouth. That's gotta be annoying!
I am a Catholic and not part of the movements you are talking about. I did grow up as an evangelical Protestant, but I and my wife freely chose to have a large family and to homeschool, not because we fear the broader culture or want to control our children’s lives totally, but because we feel it is the best way for us to fully live our vocations as human beings, Catholics, spouses, and parents. (Great, then she's not talking about you. So you can shut up if you're not going to be nice.) Our children learn about evolution, they get to watch normal kids shows and movies, they get to go out and play with kids both within homeschooling circles and without.
That's wonderful! That's not how she was raised! That's not what she's talking about!
Neither of us were homeschooled or part of these movements. We chose homeschooling because it seems the best way to guarantee a high quality education for our children, both in secular subjects but also so we can ensure that religion is not unnaturally segregated from the rest of their lives. My wife has a BA in English, and she really enjoys teaching our children. She knows that at any time, we can freely choose to send our children to school. (Of course, they, being Catholic, could send their children to parochial school for the same religion-intermixed effect.)
We don’t practice artificial birth control. You act like this is an evil, but we find it to be a great good, not just because of the children we have (we’re expecting our fifth now) but also because it enables us to wholly give ourselves to each other. It increases our intimacy and love, not diminishes it. We practice NFP.
I didn't need to know that. I certainly don't care. There's a huge difference between one couple deciding to have lots of kids and another telling their children that UNLESS they have lots of kids (and no NFP either), they're breaking God's law. The difference, again, is one of choice.
My kids seem to be happy. I suspect if asked, they would say so. They do know that other people live differently (from their friends and from TV). They do have chores, but everyone of them does as soon as they are able. It is part of learning to be fully human, that life involves work and, more importantly, that we all give to each other to make the world go round. We regularly receive compliments from strangers on how well behaved and well spoken our children are.
Lots of children who were happy in childhood grow up to wish they'd been raised differently. All they know, really, is what their parents teach them. That your children are happy in childhood, that they're complimented in childhood isn't proof of successful parenting. Not that it matters, because you're not the people she's talking about, and she specifically said many of those kids are happy in their families.
But this is not really about us. (No, it's not.) I just wanted to give you a window into our lives, our choices, our experiences of what you seem to denigrate so freely here. (Except she doesn't. You made that up, because apparently you think it IS really all about you.) We’re a very happy family. My wife wouldn’t have things any other way. She is intelligent and free, and she chose this way of life. So please, again, reconsider, ponder this more before continuing down the path. Unless there are real abuses and, for example, forcible constraining, these people don’t need “saving.” If they are like you, they may find when they grow up that there is another way they prefer. Such is the way of things.
Ponder before going down the path he just made up so he could tell her not to do it, that is. Because he can tell from HIS life what HER life was like as a child and young adult.
I wouldn’t overplay the psychological burdens you say you have. OMFG. Because, you know, they're all in her head, right?. There are so many worse things to struggle with in life than these. If you want to liberate women, consider devoting yourself to freeing the many women are are truly in slavery, as sex slaves in the sex trade, for instance. Consider those poor women who were abused by their dads, step-dads, uncles, and their friends–women who truly do need help.
I can't snark this any more. My head, it is asplode.
Peace.
Fuck you!
Does anybody have a derailing bingo? Because I think that last paragraph hits all of it. I'm laughing over here, but only because I don't want to cry.
My life as a daughter of Christian Patriarchy
This woman has a blog in which she talks a lot about leaving her Quiverfull family and becoming an atheist and all that.
The post is okay, but then there's the comments. Or rather - The Comment, by Mr. "I'm gonna tell you what you should have posted".
Libby, it sounds like you had a pretty darn great childhood by your account. Among other things, you learned to be hardworking and selfless, and apparently, you have are now a well-educated, thoughtful person who cares about others. These things don’t come naturally. You have your parents to thank in large part, and their choice in how to raise you.
Yes, and this is probably part of why she's still, from what I can ascertain, in touch with her parents instead of having cut them out of her life completely. Plenty of people raised outside of this sort of environment are hardworking, selfless, and well-educated. (And lots of them raised inside this movement specifically aren't very well-educated. She's not making that one up!)
Before going on your suggested crusade (that is, the crusade he just made up right now), I encourage you to meditate more on these things, including what you are implicitly saying about the women who chose this way of life. It comes across as terribly arrogant because the implication is that their way of life, their total self-giving to their families, the physical, mental, and emotional toil they put into raising large families and, on top of that, schooling them, is somehow less valid, less noble than pursuing a career in, say, advertising (or any other such occupation).
Except she never said any such thing. And if you go ahead and read her blog, she never says any such thing there either. She hasn't posted much yet, it's not that long to read. At most, the closest she comes to saying that is saying that girls in these families don't HAVE a choice to stay home. Their choices are made for them. That's not remotely the same as saying that staying home with your children is a bad choice.
Being a man, I am truly humbled by these women. In my estimation, their vocation as mothers and educators is far more noble than nearly any occupation I might choose (I happen to be in software). (And isn't he lucky that he never is going to HAVE to choose to stay home and raise all his lots and lots of kids himself?) After reading your post this morning, I was downstairs, and my wife was giving herself in teaching our children. It honestly made me quite angry that you denigrated her in this way. I can’t imagine how your mom and sister must feel when you look down on them and treat their choice as unworthy of women.
I can't imagine how your wife must feel when you make things up and put them in her mouth. That's gotta be annoying!
I am a Catholic and not part of the movements you are talking about. I did grow up as an evangelical Protestant, but I and my wife freely chose to have a large family and to homeschool, not because we fear the broader culture or want to control our children’s lives totally, but because we feel it is the best way for us to fully live our vocations as human beings, Catholics, spouses, and parents. (Great, then she's not talking about you. So you can shut up if you're not going to be nice.) Our children learn about evolution, they get to watch normal kids shows and movies, they get to go out and play with kids both within homeschooling circles and without.
That's wonderful! That's not how she was raised! That's not what she's talking about!
Neither of us were homeschooled or part of these movements. We chose homeschooling because it seems the best way to guarantee a high quality education for our children, both in secular subjects but also so we can ensure that religion is not unnaturally segregated from the rest of their lives. My wife has a BA in English, and she really enjoys teaching our children. She knows that at any time, we can freely choose to send our children to school. (Of course, they, being Catholic, could send their children to parochial school for the same religion-intermixed effect.)
We don’t practice artificial birth control. You act like this is an evil, but we find it to be a great good, not just because of the children we have (we’re expecting our fifth now) but also because it enables us to wholly give ourselves to each other. It increases our intimacy and love, not diminishes it. We practice NFP.
I didn't need to know that. I certainly don't care. There's a huge difference between one couple deciding to have lots of kids and another telling their children that UNLESS they have lots of kids (and no NFP either), they're breaking God's law. The difference, again, is one of choice.
My kids seem to be happy. I suspect if asked, they would say so. They do know that other people live differently (from their friends and from TV). They do have chores, but everyone of them does as soon as they are able. It is part of learning to be fully human, that life involves work and, more importantly, that we all give to each other to make the world go round. We regularly receive compliments from strangers on how well behaved and well spoken our children are.
Lots of children who were happy in childhood grow up to wish they'd been raised differently. All they know, really, is what their parents teach them. That your children are happy in childhood, that they're complimented in childhood isn't proof of successful parenting. Not that it matters, because you're not the people she's talking about, and she specifically said many of those kids are happy in their families.
But this is not really about us. (No, it's not.) I just wanted to give you a window into our lives, our choices, our experiences of what you seem to denigrate so freely here. (Except she doesn't. You made that up, because apparently you think it IS really all about you.) We’re a very happy family. My wife wouldn’t have things any other way. She is intelligent and free, and she chose this way of life. So please, again, reconsider, ponder this more before continuing down the path. Unless there are real abuses and, for example, forcible constraining, these people don’t need “saving.” If they are like you, they may find when they grow up that there is another way they prefer. Such is the way of things.
Ponder before going down the path he just made up so he could tell her not to do it, that is. Because he can tell from HIS life what HER life was like as a child and young adult.
I wouldn’t overplay the psychological burdens you say you have. OMFG. Because, you know, they're all in her head, right?. There are so many worse things to struggle with in life than these. If you want to liberate women, consider devoting yourself to freeing the many women are are truly in slavery, as sex slaves in the sex trade, for instance. Consider those poor women who were abused by their dads, step-dads, uncles, and their friends–women who truly do need help.
I can't snark this any more. My head, it is asplode.
Peace.
Fuck you!
Does anybody have a derailing bingo? Because I think that last paragraph hits all of it. I'm laughing over here, but only because I don't want to cry.
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Date: 2011-09-06 01:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-06 01:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-06 04:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-06 04:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-06 07:37 am (UTC)... and I'm sorry that you're too emotional and irrational to see how superior and just plain right I am. Let me now continue to tell you how your opinions about your own life experiences are wrong. ...
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Date: 2011-09-06 03:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-06 04:49 am (UTC)