This is not actually surprising

[conuly]

Color-blind racial ideology linked to racism, both online and offline

Comments

[leora.livejournal.com]

Blackface? Really... in 2007? Wow... Although the idea of associating black with gangsta bothers me more, but it just seems like a ridiculously stupid thing to do.

I'd never heard of such parties before. This just is not something that has ever come up for me. Costume parties, sure, but there's no inherent racial elements in that.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

We send way too much of a mixed single on race. One the one hand we say that race doesn't matter and on the other we say that you should be proud of your race. Unless you're white.

So either it doesn't matter or it's something to be proud of. Since it's caused by about 0.02% of the human genetic code take a guess as to my stance on which is the best way to go.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

The question there, I think, is who promotes the idea that gangsta = black and just who defines what is "black" in black culture anyway?

[conuly]

Even if you're white, we say you should be proud of your ethnicity. That's why there are Irish-American groups and Italian-American groups and Polish-American groups and all, as a way of participating in your heritage.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I was preoccupied at the time that this stuff was happening. Actually, I've been preoccupied my whole life. This whole culture thing just seems to grow up around me, often in horrible ways. I was on the moon at the time - with Steve!

[dandelion.livejournal.com]

I hate articles like this. The whole point of colourblindness is naively burying your head in the sand, refusing to accept race and racism as a problem. Of course you're going to find that "Those who scored higher on the measure were more likely to hold color-blind racial attitudes, and were more likely to be ambivalent or not bothered by the race party photos." How surprising, a group that goes "la la la I'm not listening" about racism adopts the mantra of the see-no-evil, hear-no-evil monkeys when presented with racist images. They're ambivalent to not bothered, which is not right or good - but it is still the very definition of the group. I'm more interested in where the 15% of white recipients who were not at all bothered by the images sat. If those people were among the group that identified as colourblind, then that would be better evidence for outright racism among the group and not just ignorance and self-delusion. There is a difference.

“To their friends, they would express mild approval of the party photos or just not discuss race,” Tynes said. “But in private, in a reaction that they thought their friends wouldn’t see, some students would let us know that they thought the image was racist or that it angered them. We think that it’s because whites have been socialized not to talk about race.”
And it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that people are very reluctant to start a fight with people they like. People don't tell their friends off on Facebook photos for smoking pot or popping pills (illegal), passing out in the street (dangerous), pulling faces to mimic people with learning deficiencies (hurtful) - why are they suddenly going to grow a backbone if there's race involved? The participants aren't saying "it's okay because they're black", they're saying "I don't have enough courage to stand up to them". It is horribly unfair to pretend that this is wholly racially-motivated, because it happens in plenty of situations where race doesn't come into it; think of how friends of a bully usually won't intervene to stop the bullying, for example.

And not supporting affirmative action does not make you racist. Plenty of racists oppose it, but that doesn't mean all opponents are racist. It is not at all popular over here, and I have only ever seen it fail: why should I support it? In first year, there was an ethnic-minority student in my halls who had got a B and a C at A-level when the ordinary entrance requirements were ABB for his course. He ended up paying £12000 for the privilege of failing first year twice. It would have been better for him if they'd enforced the same entrance requirements as they did for everyone else and he'd gone to a university where the others had grades closer to his own.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

I've got four white ethnicities in me. None of whom I feel in any real cultural connection to. If that's the case, what's wrong if I decide I'd rather just be proud of being white in general?

Oh wait, if I do that I'm a Neo Nazi.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Word. Well-said.

The concept of 'race' is what makes discrimination on 'racial' grounds possible, but that concept has no scientific validity whatsoever, and never did. The fact that some humans are so ignorant as to hate whole vast categories of other humans because of their skin tone is pitiable and deplorable, but clinging to the bogus concept of 'race' and 'racism' is not going to make anything better.

Instead of calling it "racist behavior", which begs the question of the validity of 'race', why not just call it "hurtful behavior"? Mocking other people is hurtful, which is why it is not okay to have 'gangsta parties' in blackface on Martin Luther King Day, and not okay to burn the flag on the 4th of July, and not okay to go around singing Merry Fucking Christmas during the holidays, and not okay to use the words "gay" and "retard" as insults, and etcetera etcetera.

If the "colour-blind" (whatever that actually means) students are to be considered racists, what about those who aren't "colour-blind"? It looks to me like this article is basically saying "All whites are racists", which is in itself a racist statement.

I don't support affirmative action, but not for the reasons one might expect. I think it's symptomatic of a corrupt, dysfunctional system; it's slapping a band-aid on a serious underlying problem (or series of problems) and pretending it's all better, when in fact it's not. But all that is a rant for another day.

A person can be special, or a person can be equal, but not both.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Woah.... not wanting to give you shit here, m'friend, but maybe you'd want to re-frame that paragraph - start it out with "Even if you're black..." and see how it sounds.

I know a couple of black people who celebrate their tribal ethnicity, but most don't even know what tribe they descended from. The same thing is true of a lot of white people.

Ethnicity only remains consistent as long as an individual remains within their discrete ethnic group. Once the Irish girl marries the German boy, the game is over, because their children will not be part of either ethnic group.

IMHO, it's vain folly to be proud of things one didn't earn or achieve on one's own. Skin color, hair color, height, breast or penis size, the national origins or class status of one's ancestors... nobody chooses these things, they're all just the luck of the genetic draw, and therefore no cause for pride.


Further, I say that taking pride in such things is just the other side of the coin from discriminating against people who don't have them. If you're proud of being 6'3", you're likely to look down on someone who's only 5'4". If you're proud of being a C cup, you probably pity the A cups. As for the various manifestations of nationalistic 'pride', they are most common as preludes to war.

All folly. All vanity. All people puffing their egos up over something they think makes them special even though they did nothing to deserve it. If someone wants to be proud of what they've done or how they've lived, that's all very well, but it just seems ridiculous to go around being proud of one's pigmentation or of one's great-grandparents' country of origin.

Everybody's got pigmentation, and everybody's great-grandparents came from somewhere, so being proud of it is somewhat akin to being proud of having toes.

[conuly]

If the "colour-blind" (whatever that actually means) students are to be considered racists, what about those who aren't "colour-blind"? It looks to me like this article is basically saying "All whites are racists", which is in itself a racist statement.

I don't see that it says that at all. Color-blind means, afaik, you go around saying things like "I don't see race, I see people", a scientifically accurate but largely worthless statement when "race" is tied up with heritage, ethnicity, culture....

There's a good section there on what people who *don't* have "color-blind" attitudes do. They actively confront people on this.

Instead of calling it "racist behavior", which begs the question of the validity of 'race', why not just call it "hurtful behavior"?

If you're being hurtful and rude to people based on their race, does it matter if race is not a very scientific concept?

A person can be special, or a person can be equal, but not both.

I disagree, but give me a second to get my thoughts together, this might not be as clear as it should be.

If I were of any random ethnicity - let's pick Irish American, because it's an easy example - I might do any number of things that confirm that this is special in some ways. I might take Irish Dance lessons, which are popular enough on Staten Island. I might be more likely to give my kids one subset of names that sound "Irish" to me. I might celebrate St. Patrick's day with a certain amount of flair. I might do any number of things that I don't know what because I'm not personally Irish American.

But I'd still be entitled to equal opportunities and equal rights under the law.

Likewise, I spent my childhood in a very Italian neighborhood. The people did some things that marked them as "special" - they often spoke Italian in the home. They had a week long festival on my street for Santa Rosalia. They gave their kids names from a different set of names than the Irish Americans. And while I don't know this personally, I wouldn't be that stunned if they ate more (and more authentic) Italian food than the rest of the city. I'm just guessing based upon the ravioli factory across the street from my apartment and the preponderance of Italian bakeries around, of course.

But they're still entitled to equal rights under the law, and equal opportunities. I assume none of these things which make them, as a group, special make them less able in various areas.

There are any number of Orthodox Jewish communities in the tri-state area. As a rule, they do things that mark them as special. They dress in certain ways, they eat certain foods, many of them still speak Yiddish, they of course follow their own religion, they give their kids names from a different set of names than either the Irish or the Italian Americans (not that there isn't overlap, you know, but when you meet a four year old named Rifka or Dominick, it's not a surprise) and so on. All these things are special, but they're still, as a group, equally smart and talented, moral (or not so moral if you're a misanthrope here), and all that stuff as everybody else, and they're still equally protected under the law (or at least, that's how it's supposed to work - arguments that it doesn't are for another post).

And so it goes. Some groups or some individuals within groups may feel more or less strongly these various ties and "specialness" than others, sure, but the possibility is there. You might be raised entirely "nothing-special" until the day you decide to Get In Touch With Your Heritage, and then there you go.

(In fairness, it's not just ethnic/religious groups. This all applies to any subculture. They're special in some ways, but equal under the law.)

[conuly]

Ethnicity only remains consistent as long as an individual remains within their discrete ethnic group. Once the Irish girl marries the German boy, the game is over, because their children will not be part of either ethnic group.

Or both.

IMHO, it's vain folly to be proud of things one didn't earn or achieve on one's own. Skin color, hair color, height, breast or penis size, the national origins or class status of one's ancestors... nobody chooses these things, they're all just the luck of the genetic draw, and therefore no cause for pride.

Well, there's pride and there's pride.

Pride can mean, as you're reading it (I think?) "We're better because of this reason!"

But it can also mean "We're different because of this reason, we do this this and that, and instead of trying to change it to fit in we should embrace it and celebrate it!"

In the first sense of "pride", it's silly to be proud of your height, sure. But in the second, it makes sense - what are you going to do, change how tall you are just because other people don't like it?

[conuly]

Also, the "even if you're white" is a direct response to "unless you're white". If he'd said "unless you're black" I would have, yes, started off with those words.

[conuly]

Well, let's stop a minute. What, exactly, do you think "pride" means?

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Dictionary.com says "pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself" which seems reasonable.

[conuly]

Fair enough, and I do believe that is what some people mean when they talk about white pride - which is why you can't do that, because the only people who do actually are bigots (sad but true) - but I'm not convinced that's what most people mean when they talk about being proud of who they are - their ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity, whatever.

I think, instead, they mean something more like this definition from Merriam-Webster: having proper self-respect.

The trouble with words is that they mean multiple things, and if you look at a word thinking it means one thing when somebody else most likely is using it to mean another, it's just going to cause frustration all around.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Just because some people use pride in a way that paints them in a bad light I don't see why that should stop me from using the word however I want. As you said, it does mean different things to different people. If someone else automatically jumps to the worst possible use of a word that says more about them then it does about me.

[conuly]

You can use the word, but when people assume you're like everybody else who uses the phrase "white pride" that shouldn't be a surprise.

If someone else automatically jumps to the worst possible use of a word that says more about them then it does about me.

No, I don't think it does. In this case, you're looking at a phrase which has been largely co-opted by a specific group. That's not the listener's fault.

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

I think the 'self-resepect' definition is the key here. Terms like 'gay pride' and 'black pride' develop in contrast with people being shamed for their gay-ness or black-ness. It's a way of saying "I'm out of the closet, there's nothing wrong with being gay, look how many of us there are."

We have 'gay pride parades' and we have St Patrick's Day parades, but we don't need to call the latter 'Irish pride parades' because there is no longer serious shaming for being Irish.

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

I wish it were possible to design a study of the actual outcomes in real-world behavior when a 'color blind' person is told that his 'color blindness' is actually 'racism' etc etc.

Consider a person whose attitude has actually been 'color blind'. In socializing, professional net-working, patronizing small businesses, etc, he really has been considering only the characteristics and interests that the other person chooses to exhibit. He thinks of new people he meets as 'the guitar player' or 'the architect' or 'the hotdog vendor' rather than 'the Black', 'the Native American,' 'the Japanese'.

So when Mr. Colorblind is told that he's 'racist' and should be thinking of each new person in terms of their race -- well, some Mr. Colorblinds are going to feel uncomfortable and begin avoiding POC's altogether. Thus the guitar player isn't invited, the architect isn't hired, and fewer hotdogs are sold.

[conuly]

So when Mr. Colorblind is told that he's 'racist' and should be thinking of each new person in terms of their race

Nobody IS saying that. However, when Mr. Colorblind is saying that race doesn't matter at all (even when it's a big part of a lot of people's identities) or that racism is over and done with (even when it's not and a quick perusal of the facts should prove otherwise), or that obviously racist actions aren't because nothing is "meant by it"....

I mean, this study isn't about "avoiding" people. It's about laughing when people post obviously racist stuff online, or calling people on it.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Why should I accept that a term has been co-opted? Hell, "reclaiming" words is in these days. What's one more on the list?

[conuly]

You can do that, but it's going to be an uphill battle. That's your own business.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Not worth the hassle. I'd rather take pride in what I've actually done than in something I only have a genetic link to.

I just wanted to put the question on the table.

[queenlyzard.livejournal.com]

I like this comment.

[queenlyzard.livejournal.com]

And it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that people are very reluctant to start a fight with people they like. People don't tell their friends off on Facebook photos for smoking pot or popping pills (illegal), passing out in the street (dangerous), pulling faces to mimic people with learning deficiencies (hurtful) - why are they suddenly going to grow a backbone if there's race involved? The participants aren't saying "it's okay because they're black", they're saying "I don't have enough courage to stand up to them". It is horribly unfair to pretend that this is wholly racially-motivated, because it happens in plenty of situations where race doesn't come into it; think of how friends of a bully usually won't intervene to stop the bullying, for example.

So true! Of course, that doesn't mean that there is no problem here, but rather that we should reframe what the actual problem is.

[queenlyzard.livejournal.com]

Yes, this. And, as someone who grew up "colorblind" and has been trying to learn better, I want to add that there are very valid reasons why a white person /should/ try to have awareness of race and racial issues.

Being unaware of some of the racially-based struggles my friends and acquaintances were undergoing led me to be insensitive at times to their needs and concerns.

Let me illustrate with an unrelated example. If I were blind to the amount and nature of homophobia in our current culture, I might counsel a friend to come out of the closet-- or even spill his secret-- without knowing how much it could cost him in terms of friends, family, and career, or even his personal safety. Or I might make jokes that I consider harmless because I don't understand the actual prejudice he faces, and get mad at him for "overreacting" to them, or inadvertently put him at risk by taking him to a bar where people like to beat up on gays... and so on and on. In short, I would be a bad friend-- or employer-- for this person, because I did not take his sexual orientation into account. The same is often true of race.