It's always fun to watch Ana spelling.
Jan. 19th, 2009 10:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
conuly
It reveals so much, not just about how she speaks, but about how she *thinks* she speaks.
Like this word: Tiyrd. What is that? Tired, of course. I heard her sound it out - the y is consonantal, the r is... syllabic? Is that the word? Whatever, it's off making its own r sound. Because that's how she says the word, of course. (It's roughly how I say the word too, but I'd never write the y in there, even in a word I'd never seen spelled. Why? Because I know that ys don't just pop up in the middle of words, even if you say them.)
Button becomes btn. But apple becomes apul. Same vowel, but sometimes she writes it and sometimes she doesn't. I'm not sure of the logic. I *think* it has to do with the fact that in button that "u" sound (as she'd write it) is at the end of the vowel, but in apple it's more or less at the beginning, and she's been carefully taught that when she says the sound a consonant makes she shouldn't add a gratuitous "uh" at the end. B makes the b sound, not the BUH sound. (This ended one bit of confusion, but - if I'm right - has clearly started a whole OTHER bit of confusion instead.)
Pancake - the word of much pride - is inevitably "pancaek". She knows about silent e, and wants to cram it in there as soon as possible.
She puts a lot of ds and bs where I'd put ts and ps (and she reverses d and b a lot too, just to add to the fun!) because I guess she hears them as voiced when they're between vowels. I don't, and I don't think I say them that way either, but she does.
Edit: She still gets caught up on words like train and tree, by the way. I noticed it well before she started writing and reading, that she processed those words the way they're said - chrain, chree. But she doesn't know how to *write* the ch sound, and it annoys her. I keep telling her it's a t when you write it, but....
Like this word: Tiyrd. What is that? Tired, of course. I heard her sound it out - the y is consonantal, the r is... syllabic? Is that the word? Whatever, it's off making its own r sound. Because that's how she says the word, of course. (It's roughly how I say the word too, but I'd never write the y in there, even in a word I'd never seen spelled. Why? Because I know that ys don't just pop up in the middle of words, even if you say them.)
Button becomes btn. But apple becomes apul. Same vowel, but sometimes she writes it and sometimes she doesn't. I'm not sure of the logic. I *think* it has to do with the fact that in button that "u" sound (as she'd write it) is at the end of the vowel, but in apple it's more or less at the beginning, and she's been carefully taught that when she says the sound a consonant makes she shouldn't add a gratuitous "uh" at the end. B makes the b sound, not the BUH sound. (This ended one bit of confusion, but - if I'm right - has clearly started a whole OTHER bit of confusion instead.)
Pancake - the word of much pride - is inevitably "pancaek". She knows about silent e, and wants to cram it in there as soon as possible.
She puts a lot of ds and bs where I'd put ts and ps (and she reverses d and b a lot too, just to add to the fun!) because I guess she hears them as voiced when they're between vowels. I don't, and I don't think I say them that way either, but she does.
Edit: She still gets caught up on words like train and tree, by the way. I noticed it well before she started writing and reading, that she processed those words the way they're said - chrain, chree. But she doesn't know how to *write* the ch sound, and it annoys her. I keep telling her it's a t when you write it, but....
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no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 04:33 am (UTC)I've never heard them as chrain or chree. Is this a Yew Nork thing?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 04:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 07:57 am (UTC)I'm a native Oklahoman, so ah tawk lahk this.
(Well, not that thick, but still. I have quite an accent, according to my Chicago husband.)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 08:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:34 pm (UTC)Come to think on it, do you guys drop the consonants in such constructions as "almost" and "all right"? Even here the spoken form sounds more like a'most and a'right, and the Captain being from the South, he makes the latter into a'ight.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 04:34 am (UTC)On another note, because you have lots of experience with and knowledge about the linguistic stuff, and learning to write: Kira is just starting to write, with prompting. When she writes her name in mirror image, do I say, "Wow, your letters are so neat and even!" or "That looks great, but it is backwards" or something else? Nothing? What about when Ana spells a word Tiyrd. Do you also tell her the correct way to spell it, or do you just approve of her effort and say nothing?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 04:56 am (UTC)And she doesn't spell tree as chree, she just tries to and gets frustrated. She hasn't worked out yet that ch is t and sh together - I can't wait for the day when she does!
I don't correct spelling or handwriting except in a few very specific instances.
1. If she's writing for her teacher, and I think her spelling is going to be totally unrecognizable, I carefully write the "grown-up spelling" in parentheses underneath it, emphasizing that she's not wrong, but that it's a tricky one to sound out.
2. In the case of b and d, I sometimes *will* point out the mistake, but only if it changes the meaning of the word and it isn't guessable from context. In this case, I "point it out" by asking if she's sure she did everything right. Then she usually catches it on her own, and if not, I let it drop. I sometimes ask her if she's sure she likes her work when it's fine, just to make sure she never thinks of the question as a trap to indicate that she got a wrong answer - I really just think she should be in the habit of looking over her work, whether it's right or not!
3. Occasionally, Ana will get into a weird mood. She'll make a mistake, correct it, and then keep erasing and correcting it over and over again. I step in and forceably stop her after a minute or so, usually putting the correct way down for her to copy. This is the crux of why I avoid doing any form of correction, because I don't want to encourage more pointless perfectionism. It really is a BIG ongoing problem with her. Many days end up with me banning the eraser altogether :(
Her teacher (quite correctly!) complained to me at the beginning of the year that some parents wanted more homework (they're insane, that's all I can say) and would correct their kid's errors. This annoyed her, and it's something that makes no sense to me. They're little. They don't need correction!
And a few other thoughts: Everything I've read says that mirror writing is very common at this age and usually straightens itself out. It makes sense - up until now, they've never, ever had to worry about direction before. Now they do. And as far as spelling words wrong goes, at this age I think (and judging by what her teacher says and has sent home, I think she agrees) that it's far more important to encourage the ability to sound things out rather than to worry about the correct spelling. That will come in time - the breaking words into sounds part is what needs to be worked on now, the rest is just icing.
So what would I say in those cases? Well, you know, I do try not to make TOO big a deal (try is the operative word!) over things, so if Ana were to write her name in mirror image (hard to do when you write it AnA, as she did for a while!) I'd probably say nothing at all, and if I did say something it would be along the lines of "I see, you wrote your name. Do you want to write anything else, or are you all done?" and nothing more. If she spells a word wrong, even if I'm writing a clarification, I don't make any comment on it at all. I figure the fact that I was able to read it is comment enough. If she's clearly itching for a compliment I'll say something like "You really thought hard about this" or "Your letters have gotten very neat lately, you've been practicing", but I do try to say it in a low-key kinda way.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 02:55 pm (UTC)Then she wanted to do parachute but chickened out (she came up with the word herself; it wasn't my idea) so I had her do just the P for me. It was pointy instead of rounded, and she was very upset with herself. Even though it was past bedtime, I went rummaging around through my old things and dug out MY old handwriting stuff. I didn't seem to have anything from the stage she was at: mine went from tracing dots with little arrows showing what direction to draw in, to writing in full sentences about a farm trip, but I think it helped her get the idea that her handwriting is going to change as she gets older and practices more. But she's already such a perfectionist, and I don't want her worrying about if her P is pointy. So I can really relate to you first paragraph of #3 and find it especially helpful. And thank you again!
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 08:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 12:59 am (UTC)Ch is - in any dialect - an affricate. It's a combination of the stop t and the fricative sh. (This isn't IPA, just bear with me here.) With me so far?
When saying words like train and tree, it's easier if you... oh, I forget the word. If you insert a sound between the t and the r, because they're made in different parts of the mouth. The sound easiest to put there is a sh. Ch-ree. People do that all the time. When it comes to tr-, though, most people don't "hear" it, in the same way that they don't hear that the ay in say is actually a diphthong.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 04:25 am (UTC)I'd swear some people insert a vowel between the t and r.
After reading through much of Wikipedia's information on dental consonants, I've come to the conclusion that I just speak differently to other people. (T, D, N and L are listed as dental, but I pronounce them in an alveolar fashion. TH, now, that one's dental.)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 09:58 am (UTC)Especially for d where it "should" be t, that's not that surprising - I think a "flapped", voiced pronunciation of /t/ between vowels is common in American English. (Though I'm not sure whether that makes "ladder" and "latter" homophones, or whether there's still a difference.)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervocalic_alveolar_flapping and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withgott_Effect, for example.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 01:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 03:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 04:33 am (UTC)I've never heard them as chrain or chree. Is this a Yew Nork thing?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 04:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 07:57 am (UTC)I'm a native Oklahoman, so ah tawk lahk this.
(Well, not that thick, but still. I have quite an accent, according to my Chicago husband.)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 08:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:34 pm (UTC)Come to think on it, do you guys drop the consonants in such constructions as "almost" and "all right"? Even here the spoken form sounds more like a'most and a'right, and the Captain being from the South, he makes the latter into a'ight.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 04:34 am (UTC)On another note, because you have lots of experience with and knowledge about the linguistic stuff, and learning to write: Kira is just starting to write, with prompting. When she writes her name in mirror image, do I say, "Wow, your letters are so neat and even!" or "That looks great, but it is backwards" or something else? Nothing? What about when Ana spells a word Tiyrd. Do you also tell her the correct way to spell it, or do you just approve of her effort and say nothing?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 04:56 am (UTC)And she doesn't spell tree as chree, she just tries to and gets frustrated. She hasn't worked out yet that ch is t and sh together - I can't wait for the day when she does!
I don't correct spelling or handwriting except in a few very specific instances.
1. If she's writing for her teacher, and I think her spelling is going to be totally unrecognizable, I carefully write the "grown-up spelling" in parentheses underneath it, emphasizing that she's not wrong, but that it's a tricky one to sound out.
2. In the case of b and d, I sometimes *will* point out the mistake, but only if it changes the meaning of the word and it isn't guessable from context. In this case, I "point it out" by asking if she's sure she did everything right. Then she usually catches it on her own, and if not, I let it drop. I sometimes ask her if she's sure she likes her work when it's fine, just to make sure she never thinks of the question as a trap to indicate that she got a wrong answer - I really just think she should be in the habit of looking over her work, whether it's right or not!
3. Occasionally, Ana will get into a weird mood. She'll make a mistake, correct it, and then keep erasing and correcting it over and over again. I step in and forceably stop her after a minute or so, usually putting the correct way down for her to copy. This is the crux of why I avoid doing any form of correction, because I don't want to encourage more pointless perfectionism. It really is a BIG ongoing problem with her. Many days end up with me banning the eraser altogether :(
Her teacher (quite correctly!) complained to me at the beginning of the year that some parents wanted more homework (they're insane, that's all I can say) and would correct their kid's errors. This annoyed her, and it's something that makes no sense to me. They're little. They don't need correction!
And a few other thoughts: Everything I've read says that mirror writing is very common at this age and usually straightens itself out. It makes sense - up until now, they've never, ever had to worry about direction before. Now they do. And as far as spelling words wrong goes, at this age I think (and judging by what her teacher says and has sent home, I think she agrees) that it's far more important to encourage the ability to sound things out rather than to worry about the correct spelling. That will come in time - the breaking words into sounds part is what needs to be worked on now, the rest is just icing.
So what would I say in those cases? Well, you know, I do try not to make TOO big a deal (try is the operative word!) over things, so if Ana were to write her name in mirror image (hard to do when you write it AnA, as she did for a while!) I'd probably say nothing at all, and if I did say something it would be along the lines of "I see, you wrote your name. Do you want to write anything else, or are you all done?" and nothing more. If she spells a word wrong, even if I'm writing a clarification, I don't make any comment on it at all. I figure the fact that I was able to read it is comment enough. If she's clearly itching for a compliment I'll say something like "You really thought hard about this" or "Your letters have gotten very neat lately, you've been practicing", but I do try to say it in a low-key kinda way.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 02:55 pm (UTC)Then she wanted to do parachute but chickened out (she came up with the word herself; it wasn't my idea) so I had her do just the P for me. It was pointy instead of rounded, and she was very upset with herself. Even though it was past bedtime, I went rummaging around through my old things and dug out MY old handwriting stuff. I didn't seem to have anything from the stage she was at: mine went from tracing dots with little arrows showing what direction to draw in, to writing in full sentences about a farm trip, but I think it helped her get the idea that her handwriting is going to change as she gets older and practices more. But she's already such a perfectionist, and I don't want her worrying about if her P is pointy. So I can really relate to you first paragraph of #3 and find it especially helpful. And thank you again!
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 05:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 08:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 12:59 am (UTC)Ch is - in any dialect - an affricate. It's a combination of the stop t and the fricative sh. (This isn't IPA, just bear with me here.) With me so far?
When saying words like train and tree, it's easier if you... oh, I forget the word. If you insert a sound between the t and the r, because they're made in different parts of the mouth. The sound easiest to put there is a sh. Ch-ree. People do that all the time. When it comes to tr-, though, most people don't "hear" it, in the same way that they don't hear that the ay in say is actually a diphthong.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 04:25 am (UTC)I'd swear some people insert a vowel between the t and r.
After reading through much of Wikipedia's information on dental consonants, I've come to the conclusion that I just speak differently to other people. (T, D, N and L are listed as dental, but I pronounce them in an alveolar fashion. TH, now, that one's dental.)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 09:58 am (UTC)Especially for d where it "should" be t, that's not that surprising - I think a "flapped", voiced pronunciation of /t/ between vowels is common in American English. (Though I'm not sure whether that makes "ladder" and "latter" homophones, or whether there's still a difference.)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervocalic_alveolar_flapping and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withgott_Effect, for example.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 01:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-20 03:52 pm (UTC)