Oh, and a promise.

[conuly]

I vow to never go up to you and call you a lying liar who lies just because you tell your kids about Santa or the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy and present these as fact (even though that *is* lying I understand that you probably have the best of intentions, anyway) so long as you promise not to say to my face that people who do otherwise are denying their kids a childhood, are joyless individuals, and clearly don't let their children pretend anything for any reason whatsoever. And I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from making pleas to "innocence" - that's a pretty word that's kinda hard to pin down, like a butterfly.

Because that's just annoying.

So, yeah. You refrain from telling me all the little judgments you make regarding my views and/or motivations; and I'll do likewise. (Truth is, I don't go around judging people for indulging in popular ritual lying. I actually don't *care* that much. I just get really annoyed when those same people I'm not judging get on my case (or the case of people who agree with me) for being "self-righteous" or for whatever other reason they can come up with. And then all bets are off - because, as I've said before, if I don't like lying to children I sure as heck have no compunction about being honest with you.)

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I just didn't read the comments to that post, because honestly? I JUST DON'T CARE that much.

Of course, I really should pay attention, because we're not Christian and don't celebrate Christmas. So at some point in the future, my kid is going to want to know why Santa Claus goes to his friend's houses and not to ours. I'm not sure it's going to be enough for me to say "But you got your gifts at Diwali back in October! And who needs Santa when the Goddess Lakshmi can give you the gifts herself!"

[conuly]

Oh, but Christmas and Santa are integral parts of childhood. The fact that the vast majority of children who have ever existed (and who ever will exist) did so quite nicely without Santa? DOES NOT COMPUTE DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I swear I've gotten more criticism for saying that I wouldn't do the Santa thing with my own kids than I have for being an atheist. What puzzles me most is the assurance that I will raise children with no imagination. Having a sister five years older who loved to tease me, I don't think there was ever a time when I considered Santa to be any more real than the Muppets, and yet I still grew up to be a writer and fantasy geek with a fascination for world mythology.

[(Anonymous)]

I blame "Miracle on 34th Street".

Although, my in-laws really have no imagination. I
llbe playing with the baby and he would make a "rawr" face, so I'd say something like "Who's my little lion? Are you my little lion?" And my MIL would say "He's not a lion, he's a baby!" I have no idea how I'd do Santa with that attitude even if I wanted to!

[conuly]

Oh dear. That's really sad.

[conuly]

I've never yet understood how telling a makebelieve story to your child and expecting them to believe it encourages imagination. Having *them* make up stories? Sure. Reading stories to them that they know are fiction? Definitely. Telling them something with an air of "totally factual"? Uh....

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I'd say it's an essential part of *modern American* childhood. When all your little friends are getting tons of gifts and putting up decorations and lights, and writing letters to Santa, it's painful to feel left out, even when you know why you're not doing those things. Even though we're not Christians, we had a Christmas tree. Of course ours was a sad little pathetic one because my dad got the cheapest possible one on the lot. On December 23. Because, as I said, NOT CHRISTIANS! Even as a teenager, when I knew better, I used to get all pissed when we had to try to decorate the Charlie Brown tree, because I wanted a pretty, lit up tree like I saw in everyone else's house, and on TV, and in all the store windows. I didn't really care about the gifts so much, just the tree. But now that I have my own kid, I see why he cheaped out on a holiday tradition that was not our holiday.

[pne.livejournal.com]

I'm tempted to ask what a tree has to do with Christianity.

It seems to me that the tree-and-stockings-and-gifts part of Christmas is pretty thoroughly secularised these days, and I don't see why an atheist/Jew/Buddhist/other non-Christian couldn't enjoy them as much as, say, fireworks on the 4th of July or whatever.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I think it depends a lot on your beliefs. But the way I was raised Jewish involved quite a lot of concern about preserving our traditions and beliefs. The fear is if you start celebrating watered down versions of other people's holidays you drift further and further from Jewish tradition.

We have a holiday about trees - trees get their own new year (although you do not cut one down to celebrate it). We have a holiday wear you dress up and wear costumes (among other things); it's Purim. We have a festival of lights... well, that's Channukah, so really you could put up lots of lights and I've seen people put up blue and white Channukah lights, which makes so much more sense than Christmas lights...

I think part of it is that we have so many holidays that if you do start celebrating the religious holidays of others, you are going to skip some actually Jewish ones. And every Jew I knew did seem to skip some of the holidays. Honestly, I didn't mind messing out on Christmas. I felt envious that my friend's family actually fully celebrated Sukkot and we didn't. I always wanted to celebrate Sukkot - it is the best every holiday for a child - you build a fort! Then you camp out in it!

But anyhow, it's hard to explain... but there's this mentality of Jews being diminished and threatened everywhere, and so many Jews feel it is vital to cling to the differences to preserve their identity. I think, in part, because of how many Jews are becoming vastly secular. So, celebrating even a watered down version of Christmas is taught as a little bit of a betrayal of your culture and religion, at least, some of us are raised that way.

[conuly]

I've always thought that Jewish holidays sounded so cool. I wanna do Purim! I wanna do a Sukkot! Even Yom Kippur, that tossing breadcrumby sins into the lake sounded fascinating to me as a young child, though I understand that it's not intended to be a fun thing.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Purim is great. I hate the story, but I love the celebration. Some people forget that part of the celebration is to give small gifts of food (usually fruit and cookies (humantashen)) to friends and those in need. I think that's a lovely thing to have in a holiday. Plus, you celebrate that you're alive by enjoying yourself and having fun parties. Oh and it's great for children because you are officially sanctioned (required even) to make lots of noise. Whenever Hamen's name is said you make as much noise as you can to drown it out - and adults hand you noisemakers.

I've never actually tossed bread into the water for Yom Kippur. Usually we spent a good portion of the day at temple. Yom Kippur services are long. I find them dull.

Sukkot is neat though. I'd have enjoyed a proper sukkot. Plus, you decorate the sukkah. Build a fort, decorate it with greens and fruits and harvest themed stuff.

If I can pick some up, I may eat some apples and honey for rosh hashanah. I'm not religious, but I'm fine with keeping some bits of tradition and an excuse to eat apples and honey.

On the other hand, decorating eggs and trees did look to be fun. Of course, those are bits of Christian holidays that don't actually relate to their religious aspects, but we didn't do them. I guess what would have been more fun would be if Judaism had stolen some of the Pagan symbolism and redone it in the soft, mostly meaningless modern way.

The first two nights of Passover are nifty. I enjoyed Sedars. However, the next 6 days are incredibly annoying and mostly involve realizing how many leavened bread products you enjoy. I want a sandwich... can I have some french toast... can I just have a roll?

[conuly]

Oh, decorating eggs and trees *is* fun, but doesn't one decorate a sukkah as well?

I'm guessing french toast made with matzoh isn't so great? And yet... it should be. I mean, french toast is supposed to be made with stale hard bread, and there's nothing harder than matzoh, right?

[leora.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but my family never made a sukkah, so I was cheated.

You don't make french toast with matzah; you just don't. You make matzoh brei, which is actually quite good (it doesn't, afaik, involve any milk, but is a similar idea as french toast). I did quite like matzoh brei with some sugar. Some people do matzoh brei with onions, which I find to be quite weird; we never did.

I like both, but during most of the year, I could have either. During Passover I could only have one. It's having your food selections drastically decreased that is part of the problem. For the first couple days, it's fine, then you start to want something else. Plus, you always want what you can't have.

A large part of the problem for me was that I had to fend for myself for part of each day, and it was much harder for me to come up with food without easy bread products. Sure I could eat buttered matzoh, but that still left me hungry.

I do like charoset. I do like hard boiled eggs with mustard and/or horseradish. I do like matzoh. So, I like several traditional bits of Passover, but often the days would drag on and I'd be hungry and have more trouble finding a snack. All of the cereals would be gone.

[conuly]

My dad used to get lots of matzah after Passover because it was cheap - we had that stuff around years after he died - and it tasted great with salsa. About the only thing I liked it with, but still.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Have you ever tried matzoh brei? I've never actually made my own, so you might want to look up the recipe. But I think it goes like this... break the matzoh into small bite-size pieces. Soak them in water just a little. Then mix them up with egg and fry it. Then sprinkle sugar on it and eat it. I find it tasty.

[conuly]

Nope, never.

Question: What is the difference between matzah and matzoh?

[leora.livejournal.com]

The spelling.

It's not an English word. It's a transliteration from a different alphabet. I do not care that much about making sure I "spell it correctly" and for most such words, there are multiple spellings in use. I don't know if both matzah and matzoh get used by people other than me. If so, difference in transliteration. If not, I'm lazy and inconsistent.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I've always seen it spelled "matzo", fwiw, so add that to your data.

[conuly]

That's how I'd usually spell it too, but I figured "Hey, leora, she's Jewish, she must know!" Ah, well, as long as we can pronounce it, that's what matters, right?

[conuly]

Well, people were putting up trees anyway, so it made sense to put the holiday of Christmas around that time of year so everybody could claim that tree-putting-up was totally a Christian thing to do.

And then people retconned all sorts of lovely folk stories and fairy tales about why Christians put up trees. It's really fascinating.

As a pagan myself....

[marveen.livejournal.com]

I particularly liked the story about how twoo chwistians shouldn't make jack-o-lanterns because "they once burned the flesh of Christian martyrs!!!1!"*

You have to either laugh or cry, really.

* I kid you not, that was printed seriously in a Xtian magazine. Punctuation mine, phrasing theirs.

Re: As a pagan myself....

[conuly]

You know, when I decide to burn somebody, I'll do it with a good old fashioned bonfire, or maybe some arson. I'm sure as heck not going to carve pumpkins (or, worse, large sized turnips!) to do the job for me! How tedious and pointless!

Re: As a pagan myself....

[marveen.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly. (Have you ever tried to hollow out a turnip? It's a miserable job, no wonder pumpkins pretty much took over once they were popularized.)

[pne.livejournal.com]

Heh. Like the eggs and bunnies got retconned into Christian Easter symbols, too.

It's kinda cute.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I grew up Jewish. We never celebrated Christmas. I certainly have no intention of lying to my children to encourage them to celebrate a holiday that isn't even mine.