Oh, and a promise.

[conuly]

I vow to never go up to you and call you a lying liar who lies just because you tell your kids about Santa or the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy and present these as fact (even though that *is* lying I understand that you probably have the best of intentions, anyway) so long as you promise not to say to my face that people who do otherwise are denying their kids a childhood, are joyless individuals, and clearly don't let their children pretend anything for any reason whatsoever. And I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from making pleas to "innocence" - that's a pretty word that's kinda hard to pin down, like a butterfly.

Because that's just annoying.

So, yeah. You refrain from telling me all the little judgments you make regarding my views and/or motivations; and I'll do likewise. (Truth is, I don't go around judging people for indulging in popular ritual lying. I actually don't *care* that much. I just get really annoyed when those same people I'm not judging get on my case (or the case of people who agree with me) for being "self-righteous" or for whatever other reason they can come up with. And then all bets are off - because, as I've said before, if I don't like lying to children I sure as heck have no compunction about being honest with you.)

Comments

[ncp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I just didn't read the comments to that post, because honestly? I JUST DON'T CARE that much.

Of course, I really should pay attention, because we're not Christian and don't celebrate Christmas. So at some point in the future, my kid is going to want to know why Santa Claus goes to his friend's houses and not to ours. I'm not sure it's going to be enough for me to say "But you got your gifts at Diwali back in October! And who needs Santa when the Goddess Lakshmi can give you the gifts herself!"

[conuly]

Oh, but Christmas and Santa are integral parts of childhood. The fact that the vast majority of children who have ever existed (and who ever will exist) did so quite nicely without Santa? DOES NOT COMPUTE DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I swear I've gotten more criticism for saying that I wouldn't do the Santa thing with my own kids than I have for being an atheist. What puzzles me most is the assurance that I will raise children with no imagination. Having a sister five years older who loved to tease me, I don't think there was ever a time when I considered Santa to be any more real than the Muppets, and yet I still grew up to be a writer and fantasy geek with a fascination for world mythology.

[ncp.livejournal.com]

I blame "Miracle on 34th Street".

Although, my in-laws really have no imagination. I
llbe playing with the baby and he would make a "rawr" face, so I'd say something like "Who's my little lion? Are you my little lion?" And my MIL would say "He's not a lion, he's a baby!" I have no idea how I'd do Santa with that attitude even if I wanted to!

[conuly]

I've never yet understood how telling a makebelieve story to your child and expecting them to believe it encourages imagination. Having *them* make up stories? Sure. Reading stories to them that they know are fiction? Definitely. Telling them something with an air of "totally factual"? Uh....

[ncp.livejournal.com]

Well, I'd say it's an essential part of *modern American* childhood. When all your little friends are getting tons of gifts and putting up decorations and lights, and writing letters to Santa, it's painful to feel left out, even when you know why you're not doing those things. Even though we're not Christians, we had a Christmas tree. Of course ours was a sad little pathetic one because my dad got the cheapest possible one on the lot. On December 23. Because, as I said, NOT CHRISTIANS! Even as a teenager, when I knew better, I used to get all pissed when we had to try to decorate the Charlie Brown tree, because I wanted a pretty, lit up tree like I saw in everyone else's house, and on TV, and in all the store windows. I didn't really care about the gifts so much, just the tree. But now that I have my own kid, I see why he cheaped out on a holiday tradition that was not our holiday.

[pne.livejournal.com]

I'm tempted to ask what a tree has to do with Christianity.

It seems to me that the tree-and-stockings-and-gifts part of Christmas is pretty thoroughly secularised these days, and I don't see why an atheist/Jew/Buddhist/other non-Christian couldn't enjoy them as much as, say, fireworks on the 4th of July or whatever.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I grew up Jewish. We never celebrated Christmas. I certainly have no intention of lying to my children to encourage them to celebrate a holiday that isn't even mine.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

I liked what you said, and the link about lying. It IS a lie and that is not a judgement but simply a fact!

[conuly]

I'd be lying to say otherwise :P

Honestly, I wouldn't even tell people if they didn't start it. And why, why, why do all these discussions end up on Santa? Seriously. WHY?

[pewter-wings.livejournal.com]

So, which camp am I in if I tell the neighbor's kids 'Hurry up and shut the door! We are trying to capture enough hot air in the house so it will rise like a balloon and we can dig a basement underneath it!'?

By the way, they responded. 'Oh, ok.'

[conuly]

Pretending, I'd say. Unless the kids are likely to believe you and you know it, in which case you're not playing fair.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

Say, what could it mean when a nine-year-old can't tell that such a remark is joking?

[pewter-wings.livejournal.com]

I've been doing it to every kid that comes in my house for years, and sometimes I go to other people house and do it there to.

I do to make kids really think about what people are telling them. To learn to think a little more critically.

And it has worked. Every one of those kids now can give as good as they take. They have a sense of humor and don't just blindly follow.

Isn't that the point?

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I just didn't read the comments to that post, because honestly? I JUST DON'T CARE that much.

Of course, I really should pay attention, because we're not Christian and don't celebrate Christmas. So at some point in the future, my kid is going to want to know why Santa Claus goes to his friend's houses and not to ours. I'm not sure it's going to be enough for me to say "But you got your gifts at Diwali back in October! And who needs Santa when the Goddess Lakshmi can give you the gifts herself!"

[conuly]

Oh, but Christmas and Santa are integral parts of childhood. The fact that the vast majority of children who have ever existed (and who ever will exist) did so quite nicely without Santa? DOES NOT COMPUTE DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I swear I've gotten more criticism for saying that I wouldn't do the Santa thing with my own kids than I have for being an atheist. What puzzles me most is the assurance that I will raise children with no imagination. Having a sister five years older who loved to tease me, I don't think there was ever a time when I considered Santa to be any more real than the Muppets, and yet I still grew up to be a writer and fantasy geek with a fascination for world mythology.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I'd say it's an essential part of *modern American* childhood. When all your little friends are getting tons of gifts and putting up decorations and lights, and writing letters to Santa, it's painful to feel left out, even when you know why you're not doing those things. Even though we're not Christians, we had a Christmas tree. Of course ours was a sad little pathetic one because my dad got the cheapest possible one on the lot. On December 23. Because, as I said, NOT CHRISTIANS! Even as a teenager, when I knew better, I used to get all pissed when we had to try to decorate the Charlie Brown tree, because I wanted a pretty, lit up tree like I saw in everyone else's house, and on TV, and in all the store windows. I didn't really care about the gifts so much, just the tree. But now that I have my own kid, I see why he cheaped out on a holiday tradition that was not our holiday.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I grew up Jewish. We never celebrated Christmas. I certainly have no intention of lying to my children to encourage them to celebrate a holiday that isn't even mine.

[sayga.livejournal.com]

I liked what you said, and the link about lying. It IS a lie and that is not a judgement but simply a fact!

[conuly]

I'd be lying to say otherwise :P

Honestly, I wouldn't even tell people if they didn't start it. And why, why, why do all these discussions end up on Santa? Seriously. WHY?

[pewter-wings.livejournal.com]

So, which camp am I in if I tell the neighbor's kids 'Hurry up and shut the door! We are trying to capture enough hot air in the house so it will rise like a balloon and we can dig a basement underneath it!'?

By the way, they responded. 'Oh, ok.'

[conuly]

Pretending, I'd say. Unless the kids are likely to believe you and you know it, in which case you're not playing fair.

[marveen.livejournal.com]

Say, what could it mean when a nine-year-old can't tell that such a remark is joking?

[pewter-wings.livejournal.com]

I've been doing it to every kid that comes in my house for years, and sometimes I go to other people house and do it there to.

I do to make kids really think about what people are telling them. To learn to think a little more critically.

And it has worked. Every one of those kids now can give as good as they take. They have a sense of humor and don't just blindly follow.

Isn't that the point?