I was bopping around online last night, and I came across a post asking

[conuly]

"How do you define patriotism?"

Well, that's the title, but the actual question is the more prosaic "How do you teach patriotism?" instead.

The only answer to that question so far runs like this:

As for me, I don't teach about patriotism on July 4th...I teach it every day of the year. In my preschool classrooms we say the pledge of allegiance every day, we sing and play patriotic music weekly if not daily, and we talk about this great country and it's leaders (both past and present). Do they get it all? No, but it build a great foundation.

Which is all well and good, I guess, but my very first, second, and third thoughts after reading this went more along the lines of "I guess every day is indoctrination day over in Poky Oaks Preschool!"

Not very nice of me, and you'll notice I haven't replied.

Still, I do feel that. Or, at least, I find her answer of how she defines patriotism (even if she doesn't say so explicitly) to be a little disturbing - it's thinking that this country is great and the leaders (past and present) are great... and that's it.

She doesn't say she teaches what liberty, equality, and justice are (and though those are big words for small kids, and big concepts, there's definitely no wrong time to start teaching them!); and she doesn't say she teaches them about their most basic rights (the third amendment might go right over their heads, but the first is crucial); and she doesn't say she works to teach them about people who went *against* the status quo to make this country better (except of course for our past leaders, some of whom were stunningly unpatriotic in their *original* country of Britain (England? I'm never very clear on that)!); and while she does probably strive to instill the virtues of good citizenship in them she probably doesn't consider that part of patriotism, or she would've said so.

And of course there's the forced recitation of a loyalty oath every day, aka the Pledge of Allegiance. A simple enough oath in such language that it's close to impossible for them to understand, and she doesn't indicate that she even teaches what it means.

(Let me go on record as saying that I am firmly opposed to asking small children to make promises that they don't understand, especially when adults are not required to continually make the same promise. I don't care how benign you think the promise is, it's just not right.)

Her view of teaching patriotism and mine are so far apart... I don't know. I just don't know. She's not wrong (I do admit that, snide comments aside), I just don't think she's right. By limiting her view on patriotism she's really short-changing herself and her students.

Comments

[azurelunatic]

I taught my virtual nephew the difference between the kind of stupid lie that gets your wife and your girlfriend mad at you because you should have asked your wife if you could have a girlfriend and you said you didn't have a girlfriend when you really did, and the big dangerous kind of lie that's a lie about stuff so you start a war.

[intothesunbeams.livejournal.com]

for me, i feel that to be patriotic is to be conscious of the earth as my home, rather than feeling a blind pride in the country in which i reside. to take care of the land and nature, and try to understand and nurture the environment, makes me feel very proud of my surroundings. i think it can be dangerous to feel too proud of any government system or country, as i feel the act of dissecting land masses is to encourage us, as humans, to view the earth like it's a puzzle that's not assembled rather than a whole entity, and to feel separate and segregated from one another.

[conuly]

You know, ginmar was just talking about the international lyrics to Finlandia over in her journal, which more or less sum up what you're saying.

[intothesunbeams.livejournal.com]

hmm... i'll have to look into those... :)

[siderea]

She doesn't say she teaches what liberty, equality, and justice are (and though those are big words for small kids, and big concepts

They are? Liberty is not having to ask permission to eat dessert. Equality is everybody getting the same sized slice of cake. Justice is nobody is allowed to steal anybody else's slice of cake, and if they do anyway, we make them give it back.

Nothing here a kindergartener doesn't already know.

[mommyathome.livejournal.com]

Not having to ask permission to eat dessert? So NOT the way to teach liberty - you'll create anarchy at the dinner table!

[siderea]

That sort of my point. These things aren't taught because they are hard, they aren't taught because we don't want kids to know about them. And we certainly don't want kids to know we espouse them, or they'll throw it back in our faces.

Children are a subject people; they are, in the most profound way possible in our society, unfree. They have no liberty, and very rarely get equality or justice, either. That makes "teaching" them about these things a very fraught proposition.

The fact is, there is no honest way to teach kids these things without making them less controllable -- less the way we want (need?) kids to be.

[mommyathome.livejournal.com]

I can't help but ask - do you have children?

I agree that children are not free. I have already told my kids I am their benevolent dictator.

[siderea]

Are you hoping to tell me that I'm a bad parent? Or are you hoping to tell me that I have no right to discuss children not being a parent?

Why should I indulge your ad hominem?

[mommyathome.livejournal.com]

Oysh - don't take things so hard.

I was guessing that you weren't a parent. I just wanted to know if that guess was correct. I wasn't chastising your opinion, nor would I ever tell you that you have no right to discuss children not being a parent.

[conuly]

I'll just jump in here and say that I don't care if people argue in my journal so long as nobody expects me to resolve things if things take a downward turn, okay?

[mommyathome.livejournal.com]

Why should you jump in?

[conuly]

Because this is my journal, and I want to make it clear that if anybody does get unpleasant I really, really hate dealing with that sort of thing. Any arguments, I stay out of them. (Or I try to, anyway.)

[mommyathome.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. I shall do my best to avoid all conflicts potential and otherwise while reponding to things in your journal. Out of respect for you.

[conuly]

Thanks :)

In the past, I've lost friends over my perceived failure to correctly protect them from others, which can be awkward if I feel closer to the other friend, or if I disagree with them, or if I think *everybody* is wrong, or if I'm just in a bad mood myself, or... whatever.

I try to recognize the starting signs before they happen, rather than after a fight has already started. I may jump the gun, but at least I don't get (too much of) the blame :)

[mommyathome.livejournal.com]

I'm all for the pledge of allegiance and totally agree that it should be said daily in school. I think it teaches respect, and the understanding of the words will come in time. As for the G-d part, those who don't believe don't have to - they still get the point of 'with liberty and justice for all' (which is the part I think is important).

As for the rest of it - I agree with you completely, but those are some mighty huge concepts to teach little kids. I could just imagine my son coming home from school telling me he isn't going to do his homework bc he wants to pursue his happiness instead...

[leora.livejournal.com]

I will never forgive my kindergarten teacher for making me say the pledge of allergience. It was a filthy and disgusting trick.

I didn't know what "pledge" or "allergience" meant you see. They taught me to say it, but they didn't teach me what it was.

What it is is a promise - a vow. How can a promise have meaning when you didn't choose to make it and didn't even know you were making it? When you were tricked into making a promise you didn't understand and had no ability to refuse?

Either it teaches that you are a slave - forced to pledge your allegience with no choice in the matter. Or it teaches that promises are worthless, they have no meaning. They are to be taken so lightly that it's okay for you to not understand them because they are just a bunch of words to mouth with no meaning.

Either way is disgusting.

I was betrayed and so are so many children today.

[mommyathome.livejournal.com]

Children were betrayed by saying the Pledge of Allegiance?

Wow. I'm gobsmacked.

I guess you don't believe in patriotism either?

[leora.livejournal.com]

No, as I said they were betrayed by being told to say it without being told what it meant or that they had a choice. It isn't just a showing of patriotism; it is a pledge of allegience. You may have said the words so many times that they have become hollow nothings to you, and that too is a problem, but it is a pledge. And forcing a pledge is disgusting.

It's like being told to say I do in a marriage ceremony without being told that you are promising to marry someone. It belittles the ceremony and it's totally unfair to the person tricked into marriage.

[mommyathome.livejournal.com]

Ahhhh, I get your point.

[conuly]

I concur. I find it appalling that there are routinely stories of children totally misunderstanding the words in the Pledge of Allegience in collections of "cute stories".

[azurelunatic]

I taught my virtual nephew the difference between the kind of stupid lie that gets your wife and your girlfriend mad at you because you should have asked your wife if you could have a girlfriend and you said you didn't have a girlfriend when you really did, and the big dangerous kind of lie that's a lie about stuff so you start a war.

[(Anonymous)]

for me, i feel that to be patriotic is to be conscious of the earth as my home, rather than feeling a blind pride in the country in which i reside. to take care of the land and nature, and try to understand and nurture the environment, makes me feel very proud of my surroundings. i think it can be dangerous to feel too proud of any government system or country, as i feel the act of dissecting land masses is to encourage us, as humans, to view the earth like it's a puzzle that's not assembled rather than a whole entity, and to feel separate and segregated from one another.

[conuly]

You know, ginmar was just talking about the international lyrics to Finlandia over in her journal, which more or less sum up what you're saying.

[(Anonymous)]

hmm... i'll have to look into those... :)

[siderea]

She doesn't say she teaches what liberty, equality, and justice are (and though those are big words for small kids, and big concepts

They are? Liberty is not having to ask permission to eat dessert. Equality is everybody getting the same sized slice of cake. Justice is nobody is allowed to steal anybody else's slice of cake, and if they do anyway, we make them give it back.

Nothing here a kindergartener doesn't already know.

[(Anonymous)]

Not having to ask permission to eat dessert? So NOT the way to teach liberty - you'll create anarchy at the dinner table!

[siderea]

That sort of my point. These things aren't taught because they are hard, they aren't taught because we don't want kids to know about them. And we certainly don't want kids to know we espouse them, or they'll throw it back in our faces.

Children are a subject people; they are, in the most profound way possible in our society, unfree. They have no liberty, and very rarely get equality or justice, either. That makes "teaching" them about these things a very fraught proposition.

The fact is, there is no honest way to teach kids these things without making them less controllable -- less the way we want (need?) kids to be.

[(Anonymous)]

I can't help but ask - do you have children?

I agree that children are not free. I have already told my kids I am their benevolent dictator.

[siderea]

Are you hoping to tell me that I'm a bad parent? Or are you hoping to tell me that I have no right to discuss children not being a parent?

Why should I indulge your ad hominem?

[(Anonymous)]

Oysh - don't take things so hard.

I was guessing that you weren't a parent. I just wanted to know if that guess was correct. I wasn't chastising your opinion, nor would I ever tell you that you have no right to discuss children not being a parent.

[conuly]

I'll just jump in here and say that I don't care if people argue in my journal so long as nobody expects me to resolve things if things take a downward turn, okay?

[(Anonymous)]

Why should you jump in?

[conuly]

Because this is my journal, and I want to make it clear that if anybody does get unpleasant I really, really hate dealing with that sort of thing. Any arguments, I stay out of them. (Or I try to, anyway.)

[(Anonymous)]

Fair enough. I shall do my best to avoid all conflicts potential and otherwise while reponding to things in your journal. Out of respect for you.

[conuly]

Thanks :)

In the past, I've lost friends over my perceived failure to correctly protect them from others, which can be awkward if I feel closer to the other friend, or if I disagree with them, or if I think *everybody* is wrong, or if I'm just in a bad mood myself, or... whatever.

I try to recognize the starting signs before they happen, rather than after a fight has already started. I may jump the gun, but at least I don't get (too much of) the blame :)

[(Anonymous)]

I'm all for the pledge of allegiance and totally agree that it should be said daily in school. I think it teaches respect, and the understanding of the words will come in time. As for the G-d part, those who don't believe don't have to - they still get the point of 'with liberty and justice for all' (which is the part I think is important).

As for the rest of it - I agree with you completely, but those are some mighty huge concepts to teach little kids. I could just imagine my son coming home from school telling me he isn't going to do his homework bc he wants to pursue his happiness instead...

[leora.livejournal.com]

I will never forgive my kindergarten teacher for making me say the pledge of allergience. It was a filthy and disgusting trick.

I didn't know what "pledge" or "allergience" meant you see. They taught me to say it, but they didn't teach me what it was.

What it is is a promise - a vow. How can a promise have meaning when you didn't choose to make it and didn't even know you were making it? When you were tricked into making a promise you didn't understand and had no ability to refuse?

Either it teaches that you are a slave - forced to pledge your allegience with no choice in the matter. Or it teaches that promises are worthless, they have no meaning. They are to be taken so lightly that it's okay for you to not understand them because they are just a bunch of words to mouth with no meaning.

Either way is disgusting.

I was betrayed and so are so many children today.

[(Anonymous)]

Children were betrayed by saying the Pledge of Allegiance?

Wow. I'm gobsmacked.

I guess you don't believe in patriotism either?

[leora.livejournal.com]

No, as I said they were betrayed by being told to say it without being told what it meant or that they had a choice. It isn't just a showing of patriotism; it is a pledge of allegience. You may have said the words so many times that they have become hollow nothings to you, and that too is a problem, but it is a pledge. And forcing a pledge is disgusting.

It's like being told to say I do in a marriage ceremony without being told that you are promising to marry someone. It belittles the ceremony and it's totally unfair to the person tricked into marriage.

[(Anonymous)]

Ahhhh, I get your point.

[conuly]

I concur. I find it appalling that there are routinely stories of children totally misunderstanding the words in the Pledge of Allegience in collections of "cute stories".