More politics

[conuly]

Some of you may remember my longass post about how the Pledge is stupid and the American's Creed is better. If not, you can no doubt find it in my memories (I'm at 200 now! Go me!)

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000630.html

I love this person. Seriously.

If any further evidence is needed that the purpose of the Pledge of Allegiance is to inculcate mindless loyalty to the state, it can be found in the fact that many children clearly do not understand what they are saying. This can be seen in the eggcorns that they construct. My mother tells me that as a little girl she believed that there was a thing called a legiance that she was pledging to the flag. She didn't know what it was. In today's column in the New York Times, entitled Of God and the Flag, William Safire reports that as a little boy he thought that the Pledge began "I led the pigeons to the flag". In a roundabout way, I think he understood it all too well.

THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT! Or one of them, anyway. It's wrong, dead wrong, to teach children to say big words they don't even understand, especially if you're expecting them to promise something. If they don't understand it, why should they say it? You're making them lie, even if they'd mean the sentiment. So, of course, by the time they understand what it means, they're just numbly reciting pitterpatterbabble. Stupid, really. If you're going to say something and not mean it, it might as well be something personal, like "I love you" or "I'm allergic to mushrooms".

Comments

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Heh, I admit to having mangled quite a bit of the pledge myself when I was a kid-- not because I hadn't the vocabulary, but simply because I couldn't make out what everyone was saying, and I never actually saw it in writing until much later.

Personally, if they *are* going to stick with the pledge of allegiance, I'm in favor of returning it to the form in which it was originally written, not the Knights of Columbus-amended version of the Cold War era. The fact that "under God" wasn't a part of the original pledge is especially noteworthy given the fact that it was written by a Baptist minister!

(And for what it's worth, I mondegreened "under God" into "under guard" back when we had to recite the pledge back in elementary school. And I think I was momentarily confused as to where Forwitchistan was before that part finally dawned on me...)

[conuly]

He deliberately didn't include it because he thought it was divisive. A wise man, whom most seem to ignore.

Apparently, his original draft also included the word "equality", but he decided it might not take with that added :(

[minkhollow]

From my POV as a Discworld fan, Forwitchistan sounds like it'd be in Klatch somewhere. But that's just me.

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Oh, and incidentally, here's a collection of Pledge of Allegiance mondegreens (http://iusedtobelieve.com/school/the_pledge/the_pledge_d1.php). A lot of people apparently thought it was "one nation, underdog" and/or wondered who in the world Richard Stanz was. :)

Also, mondegreen (http://www.bartleby.com/61/30/M0383050.html) is now in the American Heritage Dictionary, with "led the pigeons" as the example given therein...

[mhari.livejournal.com]

If you're going to say something and not mean it, it might as well be something personal, like "I love you" or "I'm allergic to mushrooms".

metaquotes ahoy!

[conuly]

Ooh! Me famous! *twirls*

[meteorie.livejournal.com]

I agree. This reminds me of one episode of 'Boy Meets World' when they were in middle school and Topanga told Cory that he was stupid because he talked to a flag every morning and didn't even know what he was saying. Anyway, the words "Under God" weren't even IN the original Pledge. I think we should keep with the ORIGINAL intent of the Pledge and remove those words.

[sabotabby]

Also here through metaquotes. Mostly just to say "yes" and "hee".

[thespatz.livejournal.com]

Mmmm, I totally agree. I live in Texas, where they recently passed legislation that requires students to say the pledge each day (though you can get excused from it by your parents), followed by a minute of silence. Needless to say, we're all feeling *very* patriotic when that time of day rolls around *rolls eyes*

More to the point of your post: in elementary school, we had to say the pledge in English and Spanish. Not only was there some really atrocious mispronunciation, I mumbled the words so many times that I had frequently had no idea what word I was saying. I never came up with anything like "I led the pigeons to the flag," though ;)

[shibaiko.livejournal.com]

Don't forget the Texas pledge.
I pledge alliegence to thee, Texas, one and indivisible.
I haven't actually said the pledge in three years, American or Texan. There was one kid in my class last year who wouldn't even stand.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Funny, but I have this same argument going on in my own LJ! (Just with less humor than you have. :) )

Go us!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

*slightly amused*
At age five, I knew the words of the Lord's prayer by heart (blame my mom for dragging me to church every Sunday), but do you think I had the slightest idea what the words meant? Trust me, I didn't. And since I'd learned it at such an early age, I never much thought about it - I mean, if I had to say it, I'd switch into some kind of robotic mode and just say it through. If you'd asked me what it was about, I would have had to think about it really hard for a while...
and it didn't help much anyway, at least not in the way my mom probably hoped, i.e., I have not become a good Christian, to put it mildly. Which goes to show that teaching young children things by heart they neither understand nor mean doesn't lead to anything, except, maybe, that once they're old enough to understand and/ or mean it, most of them will, instead, be bored and as far away from meaning it as ever. (Of course, there are cases where indoctrination works, but it's still all rather pointless).

Goodness. Such a long rant. And actually, I just wanted to say that I dared to add you to my friends, outta curiosity - hope you don't mind.

[conuly]

Ooh! 100 friends! Yay! Time for my party!

Nope, I don't mind.

[bbhtryoink.livejournal.com]

Came here via metaquotes. Anyway...

This reminded me of Ramona Quimby (you know, from the kids books? She was in preschool or something? Stop laughing at me!). Only for her, it wasn't the pledge, it was the National Anthem. I only remember the first bit, but for Ramona, it went something like...

Jose can you see, by the dawnzer lee light

And she would ask who Jose was, and what sort of lamp a dawnzer was, and why its light was lee. Hee.

</ rambling>

[conuly]

I love Ramona! *glomps*

Yeah, I remember that. Vaguely. That's even worse. At least you can say the pledge, but who on earth can actually sing our anthem?

[lots42.livejournal.com]

What's the point of having them say it day after day after day? Do people turn into commies overnight?

P.S. I led the pigeons to the flag is classic

[bastardsword.livejournal.com]

came here through metaquotes.

the concept of the pledge is foreign to me. I'm Canadian, we just stand for the anthem. it seems so pointless.

I wonder what propelled this? "Hey, lets play "make kids say things they don't understand"! It'll be a national pastime! There'll be a contest!" Ten bucks says that the second-place entry was:

"Ampersand glooping cow-dun moo alabama-oxen nooo-PIIIEE! Superman flies in a monkey! I am a screeching owl! I mean eagle! Because the Eagle IS America! or a SYMBOL! OOOH YEA!" C'mon, nothing mixes pop culture, symbolism, amusing made-up words and lovely animals more to impress kindergarterers. Of course, the Superman reference caused so much trouble, since it was added-on later by a follower of Supermanism in the gov't, and is trying to promote a state religion, and who persecuted all the Gothamites.

Cause... y'know. Superman IS the leader of the most common religion in America. Or... summing like that.

[wow. most random comment ever. *slinks off*]

-Kimothy

[conuly]

*dies of the giggles*

Oh, I love that. Sooooooo much.

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Heh, I admit to having mangled quite a bit of the pledge myself when I was a kid-- not because I hadn't the vocabulary, but simply because I couldn't make out what everyone was saying, and I never actually saw it in writing until much later.

Personally, if they *are* going to stick with the pledge of allegiance, I'm in favor of returning it to the form in which it was originally written, not the Knights of Columbus-amended version of the Cold War era. The fact that "under God" wasn't a part of the original pledge is especially noteworthy given the fact that it was written by a Baptist minister!

(And for what it's worth, I mondegreened "under God" into "under guard" back when we had to recite the pledge back in elementary school. And I think I was momentarily confused as to where Forwitchistan was before that part finally dawned on me...)

[conuly]

He deliberately didn't include it because he thought it was divisive. A wise man, whom most seem to ignore.

Apparently, his original draft also included the word "equality", but he decided it might not take with that added :(

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Oh, and incidentally, here's a collection of Pledge of Allegiance mondegreens (http://iusedtobelieve.com/school/the_pledge/the_pledge_d1.php). A lot of people apparently thought it was "one nation, underdog" and/or wondered who in the world Richard Stanz was. :)

Also, mondegreen (http://www.bartleby.com/61/30/M0383050.html) is now in the American Heritage Dictionary, with "led the pigeons" as the example given therein...

[mhari.livejournal.com]

If you're going to say something and not mean it, it might as well be something personal, like "I love you" or "I'm allergic to mushrooms".

metaquotes ahoy!

[conuly]

Ooh! Me famous! *twirls*

[meteorie.livejournal.com]

I agree. This reminds me of one episode of 'Boy Meets World' when they were in middle school and Topanga told Cory that he was stupid because he talked to a flag every morning and didn't even know what he was saying. Anyway, the words "Under God" weren't even IN the original Pledge. I think we should keep with the ORIGINAL intent of the Pledge and remove those words.

[sabotabby]

Also here through metaquotes. Mostly just to say "yes" and "hee".

[thespatz.livejournal.com]

Mmmm, I totally agree. I live in Texas, where they recently passed legislation that requires students to say the pledge each day (though you can get excused from it by your parents), followed by a minute of silence. Needless to say, we're all feeling *very* patriotic when that time of day rolls around *rolls eyes*

More to the point of your post: in elementary school, we had to say the pledge in English and Spanish. Not only was there some really atrocious mispronunciation, I mumbled the words so many times that I had frequently had no idea what word I was saying. I never came up with anything like "I led the pigeons to the flag," though ;)

[shibaiko.livejournal.com]

Don't forget the Texas pledge.
I pledge alliegence to thee, Texas, one and indivisible.
I haven't actually said the pledge in three years, American or Texan. There was one kid in my class last year who wouldn't even stand.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Funny, but I have this same argument going on in my own LJ! (Just with less humor than you have. :) )

Go us!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

*slightly amused*
At age five, I knew the words of the Lord's prayer by heart (blame my mom for dragging me to church every Sunday), but do you think I had the slightest idea what the words meant? Trust me, I didn't. And since I'd learned it at such an early age, I never much thought about it - I mean, if I had to say it, I'd switch into some kind of robotic mode and just say it through. If you'd asked me what it was about, I would have had to think about it really hard for a while...
and it didn't help much anyway, at least not in the way my mom probably hoped, i.e., I have not become a good Christian, to put it mildly. Which goes to show that teaching young children things by heart they neither understand nor mean doesn't lead to anything, except, maybe, that once they're old enough to understand and/ or mean it, most of them will, instead, be bored and as far away from meaning it as ever. (Of course, there are cases where indoctrination works, but it's still all rather pointless).

Goodness. Such a long rant. And actually, I just wanted to say that I dared to add you to my friends, outta curiosity - hope you don't mind.

[conuly]

Ooh! 100 friends! Yay! Time for my party!

Nope, I don't mind.

[bbhtryoink.livejournal.com]

Came here via metaquotes. Anyway...

This reminded me of Ramona Quimby (you know, from the kids books? She was in preschool or something? Stop laughing at me!). Only for her, it wasn't the pledge, it was the National Anthem. I only remember the first bit, but for Ramona, it went something like...

Jose can you see, by the dawnzer lee light

And she would ask who Jose was, and what sort of lamp a dawnzer was, and why its light was lee. Hee.

</ rambling>

[conuly]

I love Ramona! *glomps*

Yeah, I remember that. Vaguely. That's even worse. At least you can say the pledge, but who on earth can actually sing our anthem?

[lots42.livejournal.com]

What's the point of having them say it day after day after day? Do people turn into commies overnight?

P.S. I led the pigeons to the flag is classic

[bastardsword.livejournal.com]

came here through metaquotes.

the concept of the pledge is foreign to me. I'm Canadian, we just stand for the anthem. it seems so pointless.

I wonder what propelled this? "Hey, lets play "make kids say things they don't understand"! It'll be a national pastime! There'll be a contest!" Ten bucks says that the second-place entry was:

"Ampersand glooping cow-dun moo alabama-oxen nooo-PIIIEE! Superman flies in a monkey! I am a screeching owl! I mean eagle! Because the Eagle IS America! or a SYMBOL! OOOH YEA!" C'mon, nothing mixes pop culture, symbolism, amusing made-up words and lovely animals more to impress kindergarterers. Of course, the Superman reference caused so much trouble, since it was added-on later by a follower of Supermanism in the gov't, and is trying to promote a state religion, and who persecuted all the Gothamites.

Cause... y'know. Superman IS the leader of the most common religion in America. Or... summing like that.

[wow. most random comment ever. *slinks off*]

-Kimothy

[conuly]

*dies of the giggles*

Oh, I love that. Sooooooo much.