Blatantly stolen link

[conuly]

http://www.livejournal.com/community/hamsters/278849.html?thread=1574721

I've mentioned before that vegans shouldn't have carnivorous pets. I'll mention it again. STICK TO RABBITS.

It's interesting, actually, that while this person says there's a huge difference between an animal hunting and an animal eating meat that's been raised in poor conditions, his reasons for not letting his cat out is "he would turn feral and hunt". Either there's a difference or there isn't.... *deep sigh*

Anyway, let's ignore that, and go to the funny part. Humans aren't animals! We're mammals!

That girl is damn stupid.*

Cats and Dogs don't need to hunt because, being domesticated, they don't have to.

Both cats and dogs were long bred to be hunters... cats doing mousing, dogs doing either dogfighting or hunting with people, or more mousing. Domestication doesn't come into it. Yes, YOUR cat and dog probably don't need to hunt, but that's not because they're domesticated, it's because they're fed. A cat or dog in the wild is still a member of a domesticated species, but they'll still hunt.

Arguments of "instinct", etc. as regards Cats and Dogs are a bit meaningless since being domesticated they are already out of their normal habitat to begin with.

A domesticated species is IN its natural habitat when it's with humans. Sorry, ducky.

Neither of those statements is particularily stupid, but saying humans aren't animals is. And then saying that they don't mean in the general sense but in a biological sense? *cracks up*

If you are speaking Biologically, yes there is a big difference between animals and mammals. Where there are some similarities between humans and animals definition-wise, there are also some very great differences-some of those include that humans have the ability to think and to reason whereas, have the ability to communicate on a much higher level than that of animals.

*shakes head in shame*


*_{I never edit or delete posts if I can help it, because it seems dishonest, but I've spoken to the girl in question, and she seems more ignorant than stupid. With a good reason, involving a lot of moving around and the public educational system. So, my apologies are offered.}

Comments

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

Oof... and ask that girl whether feral dogs and cats hunt? ;)

[aquamizuko.livejournal.com]

Wow, she really is stupid.. @_@ If you want to eat vegan, fine, but a person shouldn't expect their pets to do the same, since meat IS pretty important to some animals.

*personally thinks veganism is pointless because plants, although not really capable of showing pain or anything like that, are living things as well* You might as well just be eating rocks, in my opinion..

As for the mammals/humans not being animals thing.. *shakes head as well* I guess there really is one born every minute. 9_9

[zarriq.livejournal.com]

personally thinks veganism is pointless because plants, although not really capable of showing pain or anything like that, are living things as well

You actually hit the nail on the head right there. Plants don't feel pain. Critters do. Microbes are also living things, but nobody feels sorry for scrubbing the bathroom tiles. Everybody draws the line somewhere. Some people draw it at cute things.

Besides that, there are many, many other reasons for vegetarianism/veganism. Some feel that the idea of meat itself isn't wrong, it's just the conditions they're raised in that are wrong; some are worried about the use of growth hormones/antibiotics in livestock; some are worried about environmental consequences; etc.

Oh well. Time to get off my soapbox.

[conuly]

Some people draw it at cute things.

Which irks me, personally. Cute, bah!

Now, to be fair, while I think it's outright stupid to try to put a carnivorous creature on a vegan diet, I am told that some of them do thrive on such diets.

IF you know what you're doing.
And IF you have approval from a vet.
And IF you watch very carefully to make sure things don't go awry.

I won't personally worry.

Unfortunately, neither the original poster nor this girl really seems to fit the implied category of "IF you're not an total moron".

[zarriq.livejournal.com]

I have heard of some dogs and cats doing all right on a vegan diet, but I still don't think it's a hot idea. Everytime my kitty eats anything with vegetable matter in it, he pukes.

[xiggaroo.livejournal.com]

If I were to become a vegan or vegetarian it sure as hell wouldn't be because animal are cute. Or because I thought humans shouldn't eat meat. If you look at commercial farming, which I'm sure you have, it's disgusting. The conditions are horrid, the animals are fed very questionable and even canibalistic diets (mad cow anyone?). I don't know. My family has a farm in North Dakota that raises and slaughters cattle. I would feel bad, but those cows have it so much better than 99.99% of beef cattle in this world.(Except for maybe in India, but that's another story.) They've got 40+ acres of ND hills to run on, four ponds, and a barn that DOESNT make them crowd together. It's run like it was 50, 100 years ago.

THAT is what angers me about eating meat. I don't think that becoming a vegitarian or taking some of PeTA's fairly violent steps does anything to change the market though.

[xiggaroo.livejournal.com]

AHEM. *Vegetarian.

*shakes head at self*

[pehanoie.livejournal.com]

Same here. The thing is, I can't stop eating meat. My metabolism just doesn't work that way. I'm an O blood type. If I could could learn how to hunt and kill animals humanely, I'm all for it, but for now I have to comprimise me morals.

[pehanoie.livejournal.com]

*personally thinks veganism is pointless because plants, although not really capable of showing pain or anything like that, are living things as well* You might as well just be eating rocks, in my opinion..

Ha! I've had that thought too, and thought I was crazy.

Good point *claps for you*

[xiggaroo.livejournal.com]

http://www.livejournal.com/community/hamsters/278849.html?thread=1628993#t1628993


*dies laughing*

Hell, even my rats NEED a little bit of meat now and then. I mean, hell...

[zarriq.livejournal.com]

I do hope y'all don't take the posters in that thread to be a shining example of all veg*ns everywhere. Sheesh. I've got a dear friend who's a die-hard vegan. She has a bunch of dogs and a few cats and, natch, feeds them regular kibble with meat in it and lets them run around in the woods to hunt. Why? Because she knows better. I have a number of vegetarian friends, and none of them try to impose their diet on their carnivorous pets.

[conuly]

And I'm sure they all know that humans are animals, right?

[meteorie.livejournal.com]

If cats don't eat meat, THEN THEY DIE!!!!!!! Why don't people understand that? That's why they have sharp teeth.. so that they can eat meat! Wow, what a concept!

And dogs don't have as big of an issue with not eating meat, but I'm still convinced it's not right.

[parashiggy.livejournal.com]

I wanted to buy a little flytrap for a vegan friend.

Thing is, I have not found any.

...I'm going this weekend to find one.

[kimberlyonline.livejournal.com]

Actually, if you go on www.dictionary.com; mammal is defined as:

mam·mal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mml)
n.
Any of various warm-blooded vertebrate animals of the class Mammalia, including humans, characterized by a covering of hair on the skin and, in the female, milk-producing mammary glands for nourishing the young.

and under animal is says:

an·i·mal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-ml)
n.
A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure.
An animal organism other than a human, especially a mammal.
A person who behaves in a bestial or brutish manner.
A human considered with respect to his or her physical, as opposed to spiritual, nature.
A person having a specified aptitude or set of interests: “that rarest of musical animals, an instrumentalist who is as comfortable on a podium with a stick as he is playing his instrument” (Lon Tuck).

adj.
Relating to, characteristic of, or derived from an animal or animals: animal fat.
Relating to the physical as distinct from the spiritual nature of people: animal instincts and desires.

In terms of the context I was referring to, my statement is echnically correct, but I agree that it isn't correct if you look at all possible definitions and usages of the word. There are other contexts in which we would be considered animals (specifically when not taking into account our spiritual aspects.
Obviously I did not take care in what I wrote and was not very clear in what I meant. If i'm wrong I'm certainly willing to accept that fact if I was.

At this juncture, whatever point I was trying to make is moot, since most people posting didn't really seem to be much interested in listening and a good number of assumptions were made about me that never took in account other things I posted or where anyone ever really thought to ask me. A lot of people seemed very quick to assume I and others are stupid simply because we chose something they don't agree with. Not saying you are, but you don't know me at all and yet have made some conclusions on me based on little or no information - I myself never accused anyone else of being stupid in that entire thread.

If I regret anything at all, it was in posting in the first place as that whole thread just got way out of hand in my opinion. I mean yeah, I made an incorrect statement. So what? It doesn't make someone "damn stupid" as you put it. It just means that there is something about that specific thing that I just don't know enough about. I'll be the first to admit that biology isn't one of my strong points. For me it's an opportunity to correct something I misunderstand.

What really gets me is that you and others in that thread have gotten a huge laugh at my expense, and THAT is just wrong.

One last thing:

I do feel it's worth mentioning this as I did post this as a comment to someone else in that thread: Yes, I am Vegan. I chose to eat Vegan for strictly health reasons and to get away from eating highly processed foods. If other people want to eat meat, I could care less. As far as feeding my cat vegan, it was a choice I made carefully. I know a good deal about nutrition and I know a lot about the nutrition my cat needs. In choosing this, I did a lot of research and I consulted with a Vet, who also monitors the health of my Cat. If my cat was not thriving, I would switch his diet in a heartbeat. Also, despite being Vegan I still choose to eat fish. This is because there are a lot of health benefits to eating fish that you don't get from eating animal flesh (like beef, etc). My cat also eats fish.

Also, that whole point about keeping a cat indoors, as far as I know, most Vets and animal shelters these days promote to keep your cat as an indoor cat. I've been told the reason is it protects your cat from exposure to various diseases (such as Feline HIV and distemper to name a few. I can't speak for that other guy, but that is my reasoning.

[conuly]

Yeah, I know that one of the definitions of animal doesn't include humans. But that's NOT the biological definition. So long as you realize that was a bit incoherant, I'll be glad to stop calling you an idiot, though. We all do stupid things online. I know *I* sure have.... At any rate, that's something most people learned in kindergarten. If you somehow didn't learn it, I am suspicious of your education, at best.

Also, that whole point about keeping a cat indoors, as far as I know, most Vets and animal shelters these days promote to keep your cat as an indoor cat. I've been told the reason is it protects your cat from exposure to various diseases (such as Feline HIV and distemper to name a few. I can't speak for that other guy, but that is my reasoning.

That's perfectly reasonable. This, I would not argue with. His reasoning, though, seemed to be "there's a difference between hunting and raising animals for food _{I can see this argument}, so it's all right for animals to hunt, but I can't let my cat outside because then he'd hunt. That's just bullshit.

[kimberlyonline.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I _am_ suspicious of my education. I was an AF brat and moving as much as we did, I know I missed some things (we moved every 2 years on the average). Some schools seem to move faster than others. I did get exposed to a lot though so I suppose that's a good thing.

As much as I like biology, i'm MUCH better with computers! lol

I think that guy was just making it up as he went along. He was certainly being defensive. I don't think he really expected most of the responses he got.

[conuly]

Oh, well now I really do feel bad. It's not fair to insult people who actually have a good reason for not knowing something... And of course who are willing to reasonably complain instead of just yelling.

I should warn you, then, you got on mock_the_stupid. That's where you should really go to defend yourself.

I think that guy was just making it up as he went along. He was certainly being defensive. I don't think he really expected most of the responses he got.

Oh, I know. He got so many responses because the thread's on LJ Drama and... somewhere else. It's just everywhere. They seem to have ignored our little foray into insultville, though.

[kimberlyonline.livejournal.com]

I was wondering how long it would take to show up there lol. (i'm a member of that community and read it on occasion).

Luckily, I CAN (and often do) laugh at myself. I know i'm far from perfect. If anything, this whole thing is just amusing at this point. At this point i've pretty much moved on, but I will take a moment to post there what I posted to you.

That community so high volume, i'm sure it will be forgotten soon enough.

(btw, I love your icon-it's really cool)

[conuly]

*stares*

You're evil, you know that. Nice people make people like me feel bad. Still, glad we're all settled and can be friendly. Sometimes things don't end well (and sometimes people really are stupid)

And I love my icon too. The base is by ezzicons, and my best friend customized it for me.

[kimberlyonline.livejournal.com]

Well, I am sorry if you feel bad....it was not my intention. Settled and friendly, however, is a good thing :). Can I add you to my friends list?

ezzicons is really cool :). Thanks for sharing the link!

[conuly]

Sure you can. And you're welcome.

[catsluvdmb.livejournal.com]

Let me such say that you are AWESOME and I now bow before you. Came over from "mammals and animals are different!" fyi. I really would like to bring that girl into one of my zoology classes so that she can be publically mocked by 250 halfway intelligent mammals.

May I become one of your loyal subjects?

[conuly]

Wow. Most people don't actually say all that. And of course you can, if by that you mean "add me to your friends list". Let's see. That bumps me right up to an even hundred. Yay!

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

Oof... and ask that girl whether feral dogs and cats hunt? ;)

[aquamizuko.livejournal.com]

Wow, she really is stupid.. @_@ If you want to eat vegan, fine, but a person shouldn't expect their pets to do the same, since meat IS pretty important to some animals.

*personally thinks veganism is pointless because plants, although not really capable of showing pain or anything like that, are living things as well* You might as well just be eating rocks, in my opinion..

As for the mammals/humans not being animals thing.. *shakes head as well* I guess there really is one born every minute. 9_9

[zarriq.livejournal.com]

personally thinks veganism is pointless because plants, although not really capable of showing pain or anything like that, are living things as well

You actually hit the nail on the head right there. Plants don't feel pain. Critters do. Microbes are also living things, but nobody feels sorry for scrubbing the bathroom tiles. Everybody draws the line somewhere. Some people draw it at cute things.

Besides that, there are many, many other reasons for vegetarianism/veganism. Some feel that the idea of meat itself isn't wrong, it's just the conditions they're raised in that are wrong; some are worried about the use of growth hormones/antibiotics in livestock; some are worried about environmental consequences; etc.

Oh well. Time to get off my soapbox.

[conuly]

Some people draw it at cute things.

Which irks me, personally. Cute, bah!

Now, to be fair, while I think it's outright stupid to try to put a carnivorous creature on a vegan diet, I am told that some of them do thrive on such diets.

IF you know what you're doing.
And IF you have approval from a vet.
And IF you watch very carefully to make sure things don't go awry.

I won't personally worry.

Unfortunately, neither the original poster nor this girl really seems to fit the implied category of "IF you're not an total moron".

[zarriq.livejournal.com]

I have heard of some dogs and cats doing all right on a vegan diet, but I still don't think it's a hot idea. Everytime my kitty eats anything with vegetable matter in it, he pukes.

[xiggaroo.livejournal.com]

If I were to become a vegan or vegetarian it sure as hell wouldn't be because animal are cute. Or because I thought humans shouldn't eat meat. If you look at commercial farming, which I'm sure you have, it's disgusting. The conditions are horrid, the animals are fed very questionable and even canibalistic diets (mad cow anyone?). I don't know. My family has a farm in North Dakota that raises and slaughters cattle. I would feel bad, but those cows have it so much better than 99.99% of beef cattle in this world.(Except for maybe in India, but that's another story.) They've got 40+ acres of ND hills to run on, four ponds, and a barn that DOESNT make them crowd together. It's run like it was 50, 100 years ago.

THAT is what angers me about eating meat. I don't think that becoming a vegitarian or taking some of PeTA's fairly violent steps does anything to change the market though.

[xiggaroo.livejournal.com]

AHEM. *Vegetarian.

*shakes head at self*

[pehanoie.livejournal.com]

Same here. The thing is, I can't stop eating meat. My metabolism just doesn't work that way. I'm an O blood type. If I could could learn how to hunt and kill animals humanely, I'm all for it, but for now I have to comprimise me morals.

[pehanoie.livejournal.com]

*personally thinks veganism is pointless because plants, although not really capable of showing pain or anything like that, are living things as well* You might as well just be eating rocks, in my opinion..

Ha! I've had that thought too, and thought I was crazy.

Good point *claps for you*

[xiggaroo.livejournal.com]

http://www.livejournal.com/community/hamsters/278849.html?thread=1628993#t1628993


*dies laughing*

Hell, even my rats NEED a little bit of meat now and then. I mean, hell...

[zarriq.livejournal.com]

I do hope y'all don't take the posters in that thread to be a shining example of all veg*ns everywhere. Sheesh. I've got a dear friend who's a die-hard vegan. She has a bunch of dogs and a few cats and, natch, feeds them regular kibble with meat in it and lets them run around in the woods to hunt. Why? Because she knows better. I have a number of vegetarian friends, and none of them try to impose their diet on their carnivorous pets.

[conuly]

And I'm sure they all know that humans are animals, right?

[meteorie.livejournal.com]

If cats don't eat meat, THEN THEY DIE!!!!!!! Why don't people understand that? That's why they have sharp teeth.. so that they can eat meat! Wow, what a concept!

And dogs don't have as big of an issue with not eating meat, but I'm still convinced it's not right.

[parashiggy.livejournal.com]

I wanted to buy a little flytrap for a vegan friend.

Thing is, I have not found any.

...I'm going this weekend to find one.

[kimberlyonline.livejournal.com]

Actually, if you go on www.dictionary.com; mammal is defined as:

mam·mal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mml)
n.
Any of various warm-blooded vertebrate animals of the class Mammalia, including humans, characterized by a covering of hair on the skin and, in the female, milk-producing mammary glands for nourishing the young.

and under animal is says:

an·i·mal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-ml)
n.
A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure.
An animal organism other than a human, especially a mammal.
A person who behaves in a bestial or brutish manner.
A human considered with respect to his or her physical, as opposed to spiritual, nature.
A person having a specified aptitude or set of interests: “that rarest of musical animals, an instrumentalist who is as comfortable on a podium with a stick as he is playing his instrument” (Lon Tuck).

adj.
Relating to, characteristic of, or derived from an animal or animals: animal fat.
Relating to the physical as distinct from the spiritual nature of people: animal instincts and desires.

In terms of the context I was referring to, my statement is echnically correct, but I agree that it isn't correct if you look at all possible definitions and usages of the word. There are other contexts in which we would be considered animals (specifically when not taking into account our spiritual aspects.
Obviously I did not take care in what I wrote and was not very clear in what I meant. If i'm wrong I'm certainly willing to accept that fact if I was.

At this juncture, whatever point I was trying to make is moot, since most people posting didn't really seem to be much interested in listening and a good number of assumptions were made about me that never took in account other things I posted or where anyone ever really thought to ask me. A lot of people seemed very quick to assume I and others are stupid simply because we chose something they don't agree with. Not saying you are, but you don't know me at all and yet have made some conclusions on me based on little or no information - I myself never accused anyone else of being stupid in that entire thread.

If I regret anything at all, it was in posting in the first place as that whole thread just got way out of hand in my opinion. I mean yeah, I made an incorrect statement. So what? It doesn't make someone "damn stupid" as you put it. It just means that there is something about that specific thing that I just don't know enough about. I'll be the first to admit that biology isn't one of my strong points. For me it's an opportunity to correct something I misunderstand.

What really gets me is that you and others in that thread have gotten a huge laugh at my expense, and THAT is just wrong.

One last thing:

I do feel it's worth mentioning this as I did post this as a comment to someone else in that thread: Yes, I am Vegan. I chose to eat Vegan for strictly health reasons and to get away from eating highly processed foods. If other people want to eat meat, I could care less. As far as feeding my cat vegan, it was a choice I made carefully. I know a good deal about nutrition and I know a lot about the nutrition my cat needs. In choosing this, I did a lot of research and I consulted with a Vet, who also monitors the health of my Cat. If my cat was not thriving, I would switch his diet in a heartbeat. Also, despite being Vegan I still choose to eat fish. This is because there are a lot of health benefits to eating fish that you don't get from eating animal flesh (like beef, etc). My cat also eats fish.

Also, that whole point about keeping a cat indoors, as far as I know, most Vets and animal shelters these days promote to keep your cat as an indoor cat. I've been told the reason is it protects your cat from exposure to various diseases (such as Feline HIV and distemper to name a few. I can't speak for that other guy, but that is my reasoning.

[conuly]

Yeah, I know that one of the definitions of animal doesn't include humans. But that's NOT the biological definition. So long as you realize that was a bit incoherant, I'll be glad to stop calling you an idiot, though. We all do stupid things online. I know *I* sure have.... At any rate, that's something most people learned in kindergarten. If you somehow didn't learn it, I am suspicious of your education, at best.

Also, that whole point about keeping a cat indoors, as far as I know, most Vets and animal shelters these days promote to keep your cat as an indoor cat. I've been told the reason is it protects your cat from exposure to various diseases (such as Feline HIV and distemper to name a few. I can't speak for that other guy, but that is my reasoning.

That's perfectly reasonable. This, I would not argue with. His reasoning, though, seemed to be "there's a difference between hunting and raising animals for food _{I can see this argument}, so it's all right for animals to hunt, but I can't let my cat outside because then he'd hunt. That's just bullshit.

[kimberlyonline.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I _am_ suspicious of my education. I was an AF brat and moving as much as we did, I know I missed some things (we moved every 2 years on the average). Some schools seem to move faster than others. I did get exposed to a lot though so I suppose that's a good thing.

As much as I like biology, i'm MUCH better with computers! lol

I think that guy was just making it up as he went along. He was certainly being defensive. I don't think he really expected most of the responses he got.

[conuly]

Oh, well now I really do feel bad. It's not fair to insult people who actually have a good reason for not knowing something... And of course who are willing to reasonably complain instead of just yelling.

I should warn you, then, you got on mock_the_stupid. That's where you should really go to defend yourself.

I think that guy was just making it up as he went along. He was certainly being defensive. I don't think he really expected most of the responses he got.

Oh, I know. He got so many responses because the thread's on LJ Drama and... somewhere else. It's just everywhere. They seem to have ignored our little foray into insultville, though.

[kimberlyonline.livejournal.com]

I was wondering how long it would take to show up there lol. (i'm a member of that community and read it on occasion).

Luckily, I CAN (and often do) laugh at myself. I know i'm far from perfect. If anything, this whole thing is just amusing at this point. At this point i've pretty much moved on, but I will take a moment to post there what I posted to you.

That community so high volume, i'm sure it will be forgotten soon enough.

(btw, I love your icon-it's really cool)

[conuly]

*stares*

You're evil, you know that. Nice people make people like me feel bad. Still, glad we're all settled and can be friendly. Sometimes things don't end well (and sometimes people really are stupid)

And I love my icon too. The base is by ezzicons, and my best friend customized it for me.

[kimberlyonline.livejournal.com]

Well, I am sorry if you feel bad....it was not my intention. Settled and friendly, however, is a good thing :). Can I add you to my friends list?

ezzicons is really cool :). Thanks for sharing the link!

[conuly]

Sure you can. And you're welcome.

[catsluvdmb.livejournal.com]

Let me such say that you are AWESOME and I now bow before you. Came over from "mammals and animals are different!" fyi. I really would like to bring that girl into one of my zoology classes so that she can be publically mocked by 250 halfway intelligent mammals.

May I become one of your loyal subjects?

[conuly]

Wow. Most people don't actually say all that. And of course you can, if by that you mean "add me to your friends list". Let's see. That bumps me right up to an even hundred. Yay!