Today (yesterday, that is) I met Yet Another Belgian.

[conuly]

A Fleming, to be precise, which means that after I hit her up for free chocolate (hey, a girl's got needs....), I asked her the question of the day: What do you call your language?

Belgian Lisa was pleased to inform me that "Dutch is what they speak in Holland".

I'm having entirely too much fun with this debate, can you tell? Aaaaaand, next time I see her, she very well may have chocolate for me! Mmmmmm. (Or, y'know, not. I do barely know this woman. But I did tell her about good kid's programs she can take her 14-month-old to, so I deserve some compensation, don't I?)

Comments

[woodface]

They just made things complicated because at first we were speaking Dutch and then suddenly they decided that Flemish was really its own thing. Now we're all confused.

[conuly]

What first? I was taught "It's Flemish" as a kid, and so was my sister. That's 26 years ago, which means my mom was also taught "It's Flemish" when she was a kid, and she was born in 1949. Though I'm willing to accept that the word used depends on how strongly you identify with your language or something like that.

What's your vote, anyway?

[woodface]

*frowns* I've always heard it refered to as Dutch. One of the ongoing things was, that I used to say 'flemish' as a kid and one adult or other would always correct me and point out that there was no such thing as flemish. The acceptance of it being considered flemish is a fairly new movement.

No, vote. I can ask my sis what is right as she teaches dutch in high school and is more up to speed to what's right and what's wrong.

Now 100% less confusing.

[conuly]

Unfortunately for you, me, and your sister, things like "is this a language or just a dialect" do tend to be left up to consensus - which means voting instead of binary right/wrong choices. They're political choices. The words we use to describe what we speak, and who we are are important - and in the end, there's no easy right or wrong.

Now, speaking linguistically, I know that Flemish is a variant of Dutch, a dialect. But that's not politically speaking - politically speaking, whether you call what you speak Flemish or Dutch depends on a lot more than what the government wants you to call it to schoolchildren.

[woodface]

*shrugs* You can't say Flemish is a dialect either as not one person in this country speaks Flemish. When we speak 'properly', we speak dutch. When we speak a dialect, we speak depending on what region we're from as not one dialect is the same.

[conuly]

But if there are people in your country who call what they speak Flemish, then there are people who speak Flemish. You might not agree, but if I ask them "Hey, what are you speaking?" and get the answer "Flemish" (as has happened to me several times in the past few months, as I apparently know far more Flemings than I ever imagined possible. Well, three or four, anyway :P) but they don't agree that they speak Dutch. They may even go so far as to claim that "Not one person in this/my country speaks Dutch, and all those regional varieties are dialects of Flemish".

[woodface]

Then I invite them to go buy a flemish dictionary. ;o)

[conuly]

One book teaching Flemish (not Dutch)

One online Flemish-English dictionary

:P

And that doesn't prove your point. I said that language is based on consenus, even though we don't want to believe it. We want to believe that there are rules that we can't break, and if we do we're wrong - and there are rules like that, but they aren't the ones people like to think they are.

If enough people in Flanders are calling the language Flemish, and pushing for it to be called Flemish, they will make Flemish dictionaries. They might have already done so, for all I know. That doesn't mean that anything about the language will have changed - just that there's enough people calling it Flemish for there to be a market for a separate dictionary.

And even if such dictionaries never appear, that still wouldn't prove anything. There are people who call Mandarin and Cantonese dialects of Chinese, but linguistically speaking they're different languages. There are plenty of languages under the sun that lack a writing system, far less a dictionary.

(Or, contrary-wise, the existence of separate dictionaries for Americans and for Brits doesn't mean we actually speak separate languages, or that we believe it important to differentiate our languages - we just spell differently, is all. And should you find a Flemish dictionary, you would still have the right to roll your eyes and say that you speak Dutch. It's your language, isn't it? You have the right to call it what you please, and you're right, as far as it applies to you. But that doesn't make Belgian Lisa wrong for calling it Flemish.)

[conuly]

I lost track of that sentence. Sorry. Now I have no idea how it was supposed to run, either, so I can't correct it.

[conuly]

Or take Scots. Is it a language? Or a form of English? Don't ask me, I don't have the slightest clue, but apparently this is quite the roaring debate. Or so I'm reliably informed by teh internet.

[woodface]

They just made things complicated because at first we were speaking Dutch and then suddenly they decided that Flemish was really its own thing. Now we're all confused.

[conuly]

What first? I was taught "It's Flemish" as a kid, and so was my sister. That's 26 years ago, which means my mom was also taught "It's Flemish" when she was a kid, and she was born in 1949. Though I'm willing to accept that the word used depends on how strongly you identify with your language or something like that.

What's your vote, anyway?

[woodface]

*frowns* I've always heard it refered to as Dutch. One of the ongoing things was, that I used to say 'flemish' as a kid and one adult or other would always correct me and point out that there was no such thing as flemish. The acceptance of it being considered flemish is a fairly new movement.

No, vote. I can ask my sis what is right as she teaches dutch in high school and is more up to speed to what's right and what's wrong.

Now 100% less confusing.

[conuly]

Unfortunately for you, me, and your sister, things like "is this a language or just a dialect" do tend to be left up to consensus - which means voting instead of binary right/wrong choices. They're political choices. The words we use to describe what we speak, and who we are are important - and in the end, there's no easy right or wrong.

Now, speaking linguistically, I know that Flemish is a variant of Dutch, a dialect. But that's not politically speaking - politically speaking, whether you call what you speak Flemish or Dutch depends on a lot more than what the government wants you to call it to schoolchildren.

[woodface]

*shrugs* You can't say Flemish is a dialect either as not one person in this country speaks Flemish. When we speak 'properly', we speak dutch. When we speak a dialect, we speak depending on what region we're from as not one dialect is the same.

[conuly]

But if there are people in your country who call what they speak Flemish, then there are people who speak Flemish. You might not agree, but if I ask them "Hey, what are you speaking?" and get the answer "Flemish" (as has happened to me several times in the past few months, as I apparently know far more Flemings than I ever imagined possible. Well, three or four, anyway :P) but they don't agree that they speak Dutch. They may even go so far as to claim that "Not one person in this/my country speaks Dutch, and all those regional varieties are dialects of Flemish".

[woodface]

Then I invite them to go buy a flemish dictionary. ;o)

[conuly]

One book teaching Flemish (not Dutch)

One online Flemish-English dictionary

:P

And that doesn't prove your point. I said that language is based on consenus, even though we don't want to believe it. We want to believe that there are rules that we can't break, and if we do we're wrong - and there are rules like that, but they aren't the ones people like to think they are.

If enough people in Flanders are calling the language Flemish, and pushing for it to be called Flemish, they will make Flemish dictionaries. They might have already done so, for all I know. That doesn't mean that anything about the language will have changed - just that there's enough people calling it Flemish for there to be a market for a separate dictionary.

And even if such dictionaries never appear, that still wouldn't prove anything. There are people who call Mandarin and Cantonese dialects of Chinese, but linguistically speaking they're different languages. There are plenty of languages under the sun that lack a writing system, far less a dictionary.

(Or, contrary-wise, the existence of separate dictionaries for Americans and for Brits doesn't mean we actually speak separate languages, or that we believe it important to differentiate our languages - we just spell differently, is all. And should you find a Flemish dictionary, you would still have the right to roll your eyes and say that you speak Dutch. It's your language, isn't it? You have the right to call it what you please, and you're right, as far as it applies to you. But that doesn't make Belgian Lisa wrong for calling it Flemish.)

[conuly]

I lost track of that sentence. Sorry. Now I have no idea how it was supposed to run, either, so I can't correct it.

[conuly]

Or take Scots. Is it a language? Or a form of English? Don't ask me, I don't have the slightest clue, but apparently this is quite the roaring debate. Or so I'm reliably informed by teh internet.