A general explanation...

[conuly]

When I say "I'm mad at someone" that doesn't necessarily mean I hate their guts. Yes, even when I say they can rot in hell, it's being mad at them and not taking the time to edit my post later. Of course, when I make the post public, that's a mistake. My apologies.

I'm going to explain my view RATIONALLY this time. Then I'll hush on it.

I actually have had good conversations with auryanne. That's actually why it pissed me off so much that on NC, she said things that sounded to me like "You never like anything on neopets, all you do is complain, if you hate the site so much you should leave", because it didn't, and doesn't make sense to me that somebody I can respect at times can also say what seem to me to be blatantly inaccurate things... The threads on neocolours are, some of them, very enthusiastic about certain colors. Even the striped lupe got a few cheers (okay, nobody went crazy over it, but that's because it's a striped pet. We'd just as easily go crazy over red) Most people on that forum obviously do NOT hate neopets, and will in fact was rhasphodic about aspects of the site they love. Is it any less of a critical board? No, of course not. Doesn't mean we don't like the site, though, it means we think too much about it.

I know the forums on NC are slow, but it did irritate me that she seemed to respond only to criticisms, not to compliments or to the posts where people, responding to her, mentioned that it isn't ALL criticism. Yes, criticisms are easier to remember. No, that doesn't mean it's all criticism.

I think the tipping point for me was the royal paintbrush. Several people had said that they liked the way it was drawn, but not the anthroness, and instead of accepting that as "I'd like it if this were a style I liked", draco's comments seemed to me that she'd read "I can't stand it at all, and I could do a million times better". I can understand being pissed at other people and ranting, I just did that myself, but I respond to corrections, or try to, and people had been telling her "we do like some colors!". Of course, to be fair, I know NC is slow. That doesn't matter in rants, only in counter-rants.

There's a difference, of course, between a rant and a well-reasoned complaint about a person's behaviour. I felt, when I wrote that rant, that I'd already commented on the behaviour to no response, good or bad. That's why I ranted. Honestly, it still confuses me how I can have two differing images of the same person, one as a reasonable person who can get into a healthy argument and forgive people who upset her, and the other as a person who gets upset over criticism and apparently can't see when she's not being criticized. Hopefully I can now honestly see the former and not the latter. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't be explaining, apologising, or in any way responding to my rantling.

I honestly did not mean to upset anyone. I had been venting to people who shared my opinion (preaching to the converted, really) and had only unlocked the post because I thought the person in question would never read it... why should she? We'd been back to arguing on NC for the past month! The idea that we might mend fences again never occured to me at all, and I'm sorry about that. We all feel like ranting at times, that doesn't mean we should let the rants get out of hand and wander to the person in question.

Now, to be even more fair, there's reasons people think NC is so critical. I suspect the big one is that it's easier to remember criticisms than compliments. However, if we're complaining about something that's not your fault, and you think we think it is, we won't quit because people get mad. Better to just say "look, this is what actually happened". Or if you just disagree, point out why. It definitely doesn't help to comment on the complaints so much that people only see you doing that just like you only see them complaining. This leads to me ranting in my journal, and that's just not a pretty picture.

Comments

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

I think it's like I said -- people's radars pick up on the negative more than the positive. I think what gets my feathers ruffled is not the fact they they are criticizing but rather the things they choose to pick on -- which are usually pretty irrelevant or not even the artist's choice in the first place. It's all really kind of silly when you think about it, anyway, it's just colors on a virtual pet site and I think people on both sides tend to lose sight of that.

And to be fair, regarding the Royal PB -- the impression of that thread was not "well, it's okay but could be better" but "GOOD GOD THAT'S HORRIBLE HA HA HA". *shrug* It's all a matter of perspective I guess :) (And no, I didn't even draw that pet ;) And it's easy to be on the defensive when there's one of me, and a thousand of you -- of which maybe a handful have spoken to me on a personal level. At least Livejournal is a little more equitable in that respect.

So I'm not upset really, I just wanted to clear things up ^_^

Re:

[conuly]

And I really didn't see the royal pet's thread like that at all... though that thread ended up degenerating to the point where it was nothing but meta-discussion.

And, let's be fair, we DON'T know what the artist's choices are. If we're complaining about the price of paint brushes, you shouldn't personally get upset. You can get upset more generally, but we know it's not your fault. If we're complaining about the choice of colors, we're kinda blaming you, but you can just say nicely "I (or the artist) didn't have a choice to make that color". And if it's something more general, there's a difference between saying "that wasn't an artist choice" and "you don't understand how it works".

Re:

[garoo.livejournal.com]

But she's -said it before-, I specifically remember posts in which her and Shroomy said they didn't have much power in the office, heck, Shroomy even said it recently about how she had to fight for the creative Lenny colours. And I could overlook this if it weren't for the fact that the majority of the members are not new and therefore would not know they'd said this.

And frankly, yes, people have a right to complain. Do I think everything in Neopia is peachy-keen and is good everywhere I look? Hell no! Many things in Neopia piss me off immensely. And maybe you don't see it this way and I do, which I don't doubt because everybody's minds work differently, but I do think the forum-goers in general could be better with their critisizm. It's not as common as it was before, but I don't even work there and it's tiresome to see "This looks like crap. They're not even trying." "What an abomination." It just does seem like a lot of times the anger is directed at the artists, when it appears they only do what they're told to(generally). If the colour sucks, yell at the person who approved it, not the person who submitted it. Artists more often than not -are- used to getting critisizm, but the critisizm I see on the forums isn't constructive. And I'm speaking from experience when I say that no matter how used to critisizm I am, it's going to ruffle my feathers to see my artwork thrashed. Can you see where I'm going? I only saw this post through auryanne, and I'm not trying to start trouble. The negativeness, for whatever amount of positive is posted does wear me down and it does stop me from posting a lot of times. I don't want to see asskissing, I just wish more thought would go into people's complaints.

Re:

[conuly]

Well, I'll say that when I criticize a color, I'm complaining at whomever was responsible, artist or staff or whatever. I'd rather hear "this is what happened to get rid of that cool spotted chomby" instead of "you don't know how things work at the office". I'll also say that there ARE some criticisms that are basic one-liners. I skim over those, though, since that's not worth reading, at least not to me. If I criticize, I'd rather just say what I don't like instead of cursing it out because the first helps, the second doesn't. If I just don't like it, I explain that... there's nothing wrong with it, I just don't like it, same as I don't like mushrooms.

What had irritated me was not that she got pissed at criticism... that makes sense, actually, you'll never see me take criticism well (though I don't get paid for my work, either), but that when people pointed out where they HADN'T criticized, that got no answer. Hence my rant. Yes, it spread out, but that was the focus of the rant proper.

As for you, if you feel worn down by the negativity you see, I'd suggest that the best thing to do would be to reply. Don't go into talking about how we should be less critical, just mention what you liked about the color and (maybe) how much you like reading well-written constructive criticism. Not posting means you're not making an impact at all.

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

Ahh yes, and you didn't see my email in regards to the Darigan zafara: NOT PURPLE!!! :)

We do have some creative control, but ultimately it's out of our hands. And of course things like glitches, downtime, and the economy (or Neoschools, ha ha) we can't touch.

I certainly don't think that all of NC should kiss our posteriors and unanimously love everything. I don't love every color, heck I don't even like some of my own colors. But I do think it's possible to discuss them without being nasty. And especially when you're reading 2 dozen replies about how much something sucks, yeah it can get to you, no matter how many mean art professors you've survived ;)

Sorry to cause trouble on your journal, I promise to be a good dragon from now on, see here's my halo --> 0:)

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, I agree with you a million percent on the price of paint brushes! What's the first thing you want to do when you join the site? Paint your pet, of course! And it's insanely expensive. But I understand what you are getting at.

As I've tried to explain before, it's the difference between a valid criticism, say, "I think this would have been better if they'd done x, y, or z..." or "I like the way that they did the expression, but the clothes don't do it for me". They're still opinion, but at least there's some basis to them. Whereas things like, "Oh, it has clothes so I hate it"... well, you can see how that's less helpful. Especially when it's something like the Pirate PB, where everyone has clothes!

Here's a good example for you. When the Royal Eyrie comes out, believe me, I did NOT want a dress on it, but Donna specifically told me to put a dress on it, no matter how ridiculous I might think it looks :)

Re:

[conuly]

Oh, no, I agree with you a million percent on the price of paint brushes! What's the first thing you want to do when you join the site? Paint your pet, of course! And it's insanely expensive. But I understand what you are getting at.

Yeah. Especially as that's WHY people are so critical of pet colors, because the pbs are so friggin' expensive. Is that your fault? Of course not. But people want every pet to be stunning BECAUSE the pbs cost so much. Just remember: For most of the colors, half the reason somebody doesn't like it is "it's a good color, but not at that price". Yeah, you don't feel better, but at least you know that nobody is blaming you.

As for valid criticism and such... well, you can either not go there (simple solution), ignore it (less simple solution) or start asking "Is there anything you did like? I know you don't like the clothes, but it's more than that!" and also trying to note the non-negative comments. Those are easier to remember, but it puts us all in a bad mood when we can't remember the good things.

I'd say more, but I'm starving, must buy dinner.

Djusk' a!

Re:

[feathered.livejournal.com]

Mmm, very good points. Still, I do think that the royal thread was far better than some. It's true, we do have a lot of people who stupidly post silly things like, "I hate this pb!! It sux!!1!" However, the majority of our well-known and respected posters go into great depth about why they don't like something, and give suggestions about what might make them like it better. I may be misremembering, or maybe I just pay more attention to the intelligent posts, but it seems like there were more of those than the other sort on the royal thread. Either that or they were complaining about the price, not the art. I dunno. *shrugs* I can only speak for myself, I guess, and I did try hard to say what would have made me like the zafara royalgirl better. Mostly I don't like it because I prefer regular zafaras so much better than anthro ones, and I can't imagine ever wanting to own something so close to a little human. (Okay, I do have a pirate blumaroo... but she's actually the most animal-like of all my pets, oddly enough, and the majority of pirate pets just manage not to cross my invisible mental line of 'too anthro to own.' But maybe I just like pirates better'n princesses.)

I guess it just upset me when you made your comment there.. it seemed a lot more extreme than most of ours, y'know? I think the same rules of criticizing can probably be used when talking about peoples comments... it isn't going to help improve those of us who care to be better if you just tell us to quit neopets. A post like this, on the other hand, is very useful. It shows people what comes across as hurtful and what is a good critique. I know it's hard for me to write anything very rational or constructive when I'm upset, but maybe you could consider trying to post more like this if you ever comment on the fourms again? It'd prolly be recieved a lot better... Some of us would even appreciate the tips. And those who don't are probably just silly and not worth caring about anyway.

Re:

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I had NO idea what the artist's options were before I friended auryanne.

And wow. I came to the realization that the artists have absolutely amazing ideas, but the bigwigs stomp on them or say "change it to this." Sometimes I wanna scream "NO! IT'S PERFECT AS IS!"

Not battling, just had to mention that... because I've seen some great designs that got ex-nayed. Saddening.

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

I think it's like I said -- people's radars pick up on the negative more than the positive. I think what gets my feathers ruffled is not the fact they they are criticizing but rather the things they choose to pick on -- which are usually pretty irrelevant or not even the artist's choice in the first place. It's all really kind of silly when you think about it, anyway, it's just colors on a virtual pet site and I think people on both sides tend to lose sight of that.

And to be fair, regarding the Royal PB -- the impression of that thread was not "well, it's okay but could be better" but "GOOD GOD THAT'S HORRIBLE HA HA HA". *shrug* It's all a matter of perspective I guess :) (And no, I didn't even draw that pet ;) And it's easy to be on the defensive when there's one of me, and a thousand of you -- of which maybe a handful have spoken to me on a personal level. At least Livejournal is a little more equitable in that respect.

So I'm not upset really, I just wanted to clear things up ^_^

Re:

[conuly]

And I really didn't see the royal pet's thread like that at all... though that thread ended up degenerating to the point where it was nothing but meta-discussion.

And, let's be fair, we DON'T know what the artist's choices are. If we're complaining about the price of paint brushes, you shouldn't personally get upset. You can get upset more generally, but we know it's not your fault. If we're complaining about the choice of colors, we're kinda blaming you, but you can just say nicely "I (or the artist) didn't have a choice to make that color". And if it's something more general, there's a difference between saying "that wasn't an artist choice" and "you don't understand how it works".

Re:

[garoo.livejournal.com]

But she's -said it before-, I specifically remember posts in which her and Shroomy said they didn't have much power in the office, heck, Shroomy even said it recently about how she had to fight for the creative Lenny colours. And I could overlook this if it weren't for the fact that the majority of the members are not new and therefore would not know they'd said this.

And frankly, yes, people have a right to complain. Do I think everything in Neopia is peachy-keen and is good everywhere I look? Hell no! Many things in Neopia piss me off immensely. And maybe you don't see it this way and I do, which I don't doubt because everybody's minds work differently, but I do think the forum-goers in general could be better with their critisizm. It's not as common as it was before, but I don't even work there and it's tiresome to see "This looks like crap. They're not even trying." "What an abomination." It just does seem like a lot of times the anger is directed at the artists, when it appears they only do what they're told to(generally). If the colour sucks, yell at the person who approved it, not the person who submitted it. Artists more often than not -are- used to getting critisizm, but the critisizm I see on the forums isn't constructive. And I'm speaking from experience when I say that no matter how used to critisizm I am, it's going to ruffle my feathers to see my artwork thrashed. Can you see where I'm going? I only saw this post through auryanne, and I'm not trying to start trouble. The negativeness, for whatever amount of positive is posted does wear me down and it does stop me from posting a lot of times. I don't want to see asskissing, I just wish more thought would go into people's complaints.

Re:

[conuly]

Well, I'll say that when I criticize a color, I'm complaining at whomever was responsible, artist or staff or whatever. I'd rather hear "this is what happened to get rid of that cool spotted chomby" instead of "you don't know how things work at the office". I'll also say that there ARE some criticisms that are basic one-liners. I skim over those, though, since that's not worth reading, at least not to me. If I criticize, I'd rather just say what I don't like instead of cursing it out because the first helps, the second doesn't. If I just don't like it, I explain that... there's nothing wrong with it, I just don't like it, same as I don't like mushrooms.

What had irritated me was not that she got pissed at criticism... that makes sense, actually, you'll never see me take criticism well (though I don't get paid for my work, either), but that when people pointed out where they HADN'T criticized, that got no answer. Hence my rant. Yes, it spread out, but that was the focus of the rant proper.

As for you, if you feel worn down by the negativity you see, I'd suggest that the best thing to do would be to reply. Don't go into talking about how we should be less critical, just mention what you liked about the color and (maybe) how much you like reading well-written constructive criticism. Not posting means you're not making an impact at all.

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

Ahh yes, and you didn't see my email in regards to the Darigan zafara: NOT PURPLE!!! :)

We do have some creative control, but ultimately it's out of our hands. And of course things like glitches, downtime, and the economy (or Neoschools, ha ha) we can't touch.

I certainly don't think that all of NC should kiss our posteriors and unanimously love everything. I don't love every color, heck I don't even like some of my own colors. But I do think it's possible to discuss them without being nasty. And especially when you're reading 2 dozen replies about how much something sucks, yeah it can get to you, no matter how many mean art professors you've survived ;)

Sorry to cause trouble on your journal, I promise to be a good dragon from now on, see here's my halo --> 0:)

[auryanne.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, I agree with you a million percent on the price of paint brushes! What's the first thing you want to do when you join the site? Paint your pet, of course! And it's insanely expensive. But I understand what you are getting at.

As I've tried to explain before, it's the difference between a valid criticism, say, "I think this would have been better if they'd done x, y, or z..." or "I like the way that they did the expression, but the clothes don't do it for me". They're still opinion, but at least there's some basis to them. Whereas things like, "Oh, it has clothes so I hate it"... well, you can see how that's less helpful. Especially when it's something like the Pirate PB, where everyone has clothes!

Here's a good example for you. When the Royal Eyrie comes out, believe me, I did NOT want a dress on it, but Donna specifically told me to put a dress on it, no matter how ridiculous I might think it looks :)

Re:

[conuly]

Oh, no, I agree with you a million percent on the price of paint brushes! What's the first thing you want to do when you join the site? Paint your pet, of course! And it's insanely expensive. But I understand what you are getting at.

Yeah. Especially as that's WHY people are so critical of pet colors, because the pbs are so friggin' expensive. Is that your fault? Of course not. But people want every pet to be stunning BECAUSE the pbs cost so much. Just remember: For most of the colors, half the reason somebody doesn't like it is "it's a good color, but not at that price". Yeah, you don't feel better, but at least you know that nobody is blaming you.

As for valid criticism and such... well, you can either not go there (simple solution), ignore it (less simple solution) or start asking "Is there anything you did like? I know you don't like the clothes, but it's more than that!" and also trying to note the non-negative comments. Those are easier to remember, but it puts us all in a bad mood when we can't remember the good things.

I'd say more, but I'm starving, must buy dinner.

Djusk' a!

Re:

[feathered.livejournal.com]

Mmm, very good points. Still, I do think that the royal thread was far better than some. It's true, we do have a lot of people who stupidly post silly things like, "I hate this pb!! It sux!!1!" However, the majority of our well-known and respected posters go into great depth about why they don't like something, and give suggestions about what might make them like it better. I may be misremembering, or maybe I just pay more attention to the intelligent posts, but it seems like there were more of those than the other sort on the royal thread. Either that or they were complaining about the price, not the art. I dunno. *shrugs* I can only speak for myself, I guess, and I did try hard to say what would have made me like the zafara royalgirl better. Mostly I don't like it because I prefer regular zafaras so much better than anthro ones, and I can't imagine ever wanting to own something so close to a little human. (Okay, I do have a pirate blumaroo... but she's actually the most animal-like of all my pets, oddly enough, and the majority of pirate pets just manage not to cross my invisible mental line of 'too anthro to own.' But maybe I just like pirates better'n princesses.)

I guess it just upset me when you made your comment there.. it seemed a lot more extreme than most of ours, y'know? I think the same rules of criticizing can probably be used when talking about peoples comments... it isn't going to help improve those of us who care to be better if you just tell us to quit neopets. A post like this, on the other hand, is very useful. It shows people what comes across as hurtful and what is a good critique. I know it's hard for me to write anything very rational or constructive when I'm upset, but maybe you could consider trying to post more like this if you ever comment on the fourms again? It'd prolly be recieved a lot better... Some of us would even appreciate the tips. And those who don't are probably just silly and not worth caring about anyway.

Re:

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I had NO idea what the artist's options were before I friended auryanne.

And wow. I came to the realization that the artists have absolutely amazing ideas, but the bigwigs stomp on them or say "change it to this." Sometimes I wanna scream "NO! IT'S PERFECT AS IS!"

Not battling, just had to mention that... because I've seen some great designs that got ex-nayed. Saddening.