conuly

I feel bad about the being forced to dress as a man around the kids part, but NOT about the quitting school part.

You bring children into the world, you support them. You go to school part time, or put it off. They can't wait to eat or get new clothes. And if someone is capable of going to college why aren't they capable of holding down a desk job?

Your children's well being should come first after optional things like a college education.

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"The biggest problem is that I can't find a job because no one in Spokane, WA wants to hire me due to being Transgender."

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I've known transgendered people with jobs, and I don't know -- I am a parent of three and if it was between that, and taking care of the children I brought into this world, I'd wear ANYTHING, take any shitty job I could, to make sure they were taken care of. I'd put MY NEEDS aside for my children.

And yes I've done some really crappy jobs, and so has my husband, to make sure the kids are ok. It's what you DO as a parent.

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I was simply copying and pasting what I read.

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1. The fact that you know transgendered people with jobs doesn't take away from the fact that systemic discrimination against transgendered people exists.

2. Your statement that you would do this and that seems to present being transgendered as a choice. It's really easy from a position of privilege to say how you would react if in the situation of a person without privilege. The fact of the matter is that you aren't in that position.

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*nods* And being transgendered in New York City is a far cry from being transgendered in Spokane.

There seems to be an assumption here that "transgendered" doesn't mean anything but a choice about what to wear. That assumption is utterly incorrect.

I have no sympathy at all for the "poor, poor spouse" who 'outed' Kimberly to her boss, thus getting her fired - that doesn't sound much like concern for the welfare of the children, now does it?

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*nods*

I recognize that I have the privilege of my biological sex matching up (at least mostly) with my gender identity. So it doesn't matter whether I would or wouldn't dress against that gender identity for a job, for my children. That situation is quite different for a person whose biology and identity don't match up. They have every right to take appropriate measure to present their gender identity. And shouldn't be asked to act otherwise.

[I also agree that there is a lot more to it than the issue of clothing.]

With that said, I would not take a job that required me to wear skirts/dresses, shave my legs, or keep my eyebrows plucked. I think these are ridiculous attachments to my gender and I do not feel obligated to do them. I rarely, if ever, wear dresses, and only do the other two occasionally. Would I make a terrible parent because I would like to be treated like a human capable of dictating my appearance in a reasonable manner? I don't think so.

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conuly

But she didn't quit school because "oh, I need to pay child support", he had to quit school - when she doesn't have a job, and an education will hopefully help her get a job in the future, assuming she can be hired - because her income was wrongfully calculated.

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You know, I bet if Dan and I were both allowed to just let our children slide, and go to school, I bet we could get good jobs! Just let someone else pay for our kids until we are done.

A deadbeat parent is a deadbeat parent. This is what so many families go through every year, divorcing or not. She shouldn't get special consideration because she's transgendered. EQUAL consideration, and parents are told to leave school to work to pay child support, in fact it recently made front page news here in NYC.

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conuly

Yes, but right now, she's unable to get a job. Not just for the transgendered thing, but probably also for her disability.

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See but where I'm lost is how can one be able to go to school full time and yet not work at least full time?

I really feel for the kids, in all this.

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A person is able to go to school full-time because they pay the school - however they do it, loans, grants, whatever. Any person who is able to come up with the price is able to go to school full-time, and there are all kinds of ways a person who doesn't have any income can get the price of schooling.

Employers, on the other hand, pay the person they hire, so they tend to be quite a bit pickier about who they'll take. This is why a person who can go to school full-time might find it impossible to get a full-time job.

A transgendered partially-disabled person who lived in Brooklyn could find some kind of a full-time job - there's public transit readily available to get a person anywhere in the city they need to go, and NYC is pretty open-minded about gender issues. But in Spokane? Not so easy - it's not like NYC; it's not even anything like Seattle; there's no public transit worth mentioning, the economy is severely depressed, and it's about as conservative and mean-spirited a city as you'd find anywhere in the USA.

Even a straight woman with good credentials, no disabilities and no other time-commitments (such as having to go to court appearances) might find it extremely difficult to find anything more than a part-time minimum-wage job in Spokane - especially if she had no car (or no money to put gas in it) and something that marked her as "different", like, say, a back-East accent.

For sure, things can't be very nice for

kimpossible's kids right now, and having spent the last eight years as a divorced single Mom, I feel for them too. However, that doesn't change the fact that

kimpossible is about to get sent to jail for not being able to find a full-time job in a place where full-time jobs are extremely hard to find... and how is that going to help her kids, eh? How is that going to make it easier for her to find work once she does get out?

Easy to say "should" about a person facing difficulties that one is positive one is never going to have to face oneself.

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conuly

Because schools are less likely to turn down paying students than employers in a tight market are to turn down potential employees?

It's fairly easy to get the money for your education. Not always so easy to get a job.

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Actually, she had a job, until the mother of her children 'outed' her to her boss and got her fired. Cute little trick, that - first get your ex's source of income cut off, then demand child-support based on that former income.

Funny how nobody ever suspects how coldly vindictive the person who vowed to love, honor and cherish them 'till death do us part' can become once those vows are broken, until they're getting the brunt of that vindictiveness in the face. Funny, too, how so many people who think they're happily married and certain to stay that way forever turn out to be tragically mistaken. One just never knows, does one?

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That makes me feel sick.

From:

I feel bad about the being forced to dress as a man around the kids part, but NOT about the quitting school part.

You bring children into the world, you support them. You go to school part time, or put it off. They can't wait to eat or get new clothes. And if someone is capable of going to college why aren't they capable of holding down a desk job?

Your children's well being should come first after optional things like a college education.

From:

"The biggest problem is that I can't find a job because no one in Spokane, WA wants to hire me due to being Transgender."

From:

I've known transgendered people with jobs, and I don't know -- I am a parent of three and if it was between that, and taking care of the children I brought into this world, I'd wear ANYTHING, take any shitty job I could, to make sure they were taken care of. I'd put MY NEEDS aside for my children.

And yes I've done some really crappy jobs, and so has my husband, to make sure the kids are ok. It's what you DO as a parent.

From:

I was simply copying and pasting what I read.

From:

1. The fact that you know transgendered people with jobs doesn't take away from the fact that systemic discrimination against transgendered people exists.

2. Your statement that you would do this and that seems to present being transgendered as a choice. It's really easy from a position of privilege to say how you would react if in the situation of a person without privilege. The fact of the matter is that you aren't in that position.

From:

*nods* And being transgendered in New York City is a far cry from being transgendered in Spokane.

There seems to be an assumption here that "transgendered" doesn't mean anything but a choice about what to wear. That assumption is utterly incorrect.

I have no sympathy at all for the "poor, poor spouse" who 'outed' Kimberly to her boss, thus getting her fired - that doesn't sound much like concern for the welfare of the children, now does it?

From:

*nods*

I recognize that I have the privilege of my biological sex matching up (at least mostly) with my gender identity. So it doesn't matter whether I would or wouldn't dress against that gender identity for a job, for my children. That situation is quite different for a person whose biology and identity don't match up. They have every right to take appropriate measure to present their gender identity. And shouldn't be asked to act otherwise.

[I also agree that there is a lot more to it than the issue of clothing.]

With that said, I would not take a job that required me to wear skirts/dresses, shave my legs, or keep my eyebrows plucked. I think these are ridiculous attachments to my gender and I do not feel obligated to do them. I rarely, if ever, wear dresses, and only do the other two occasionally. Would I make a terrible parent because I would like to be treated like a human capable of dictating my appearance in a reasonable manner? I don't think so.

From:

conuly

But she didn't quit school because "oh, I need to pay child support", he had to quit school - when she doesn't have a job, and an education will hopefully help her get a job in the future, assuming she can be hired - because her income was wrongfully calculated.

From:

You know, I bet if Dan and I were both allowed to just let our children slide, and go to school, I bet we could get good jobs! Just let someone else pay for our kids until we are done.

A deadbeat parent is a deadbeat parent. This is what so many families go through every year, divorcing or not. She shouldn't get special consideration because she's transgendered. EQUAL consideration, and parents are told to leave school to work to pay child support, in fact it recently made front page news here in NYC.

From:

conuly

Yes, but right now, she's unable to get a job. Not just for the transgendered thing, but probably also for her disability.

From:

See but where I'm lost is how can one be able to go to school full time and yet not work at least full time?

I really feel for the kids, in all this.

From:

A person is able to go to school full-time because they pay the school - however they do it, loans, grants, whatever. Any person who is able to come up with the price is able to go to school full-time, and there are all kinds of ways a person who doesn't have any income can get the price of schooling.

Employers, on the other hand, pay the person they hire, so they tend to be quite a bit pickier about who they'll take. This is why a person who can go to school full-time might find it impossible to get a full-time job.

A transgendered partially-disabled person who lived in Brooklyn could find some kind of a full-time job - there's public transit readily available to get a person anywhere in the city they need to go, and NYC is pretty open-minded about gender issues. But in Spokane? Not so easy - it's not like NYC; it's not even anything like Seattle; there's no public transit worth mentioning, the economy is severely depressed, and it's about as conservative and mean-spirited a city as you'd find anywhere in the USA.

Even a straight woman with good credentials, no disabilities and no other time-commitments (such as having to go to court appearances) might find it extremely difficult to find anything more than a part-time minimum-wage job in Spokane - especially if she had no car (or no money to put gas in it) and something that marked her as "different", like, say, a back-East accent.

For sure, things can't be very nice for

kimpossible's kids right now, and having spent the last eight years as a divorced single Mom, I feel for them too. However, that doesn't change the fact that

kimpossible is about to get sent to jail for not being able to find a full-time job in a place where full-time jobs are extremely hard to find... and how is that going to help her kids, eh? How is that going to make it easier for her to find work once she does get out?

Easy to say "should" about a person facing difficulties that one is positive one is never going to have to face oneself.

From:

conuly

Because schools are less likely to turn down paying students than employers in a tight market are to turn down potential employees?

It's fairly easy to get the money for your education. Not always so easy to get a job.

From:

Actually, she had a job, until the mother of her children 'outed' her to her boss and got her fired. Cute little trick, that - first get your ex's source of income cut off, then demand child-support based on that former income.

Funny how nobody ever suspects how coldly vindictive the person who vowed to love, honor and cherish them 'till death do us part' can become once those vows are broken, until they're getting the brunt of that vindictiveness in the face. Funny, too, how so many people who think they're happily married and certain to stay that way forever turn out to be tragically mistaken. One just never knows, does one?

From: