This is an interesting post from languagelog

[conuly]

On "proper Ebonics". If you're curious, I agree with the poster here. I hate the term Ebonics. It sounds so... ick.

Comments

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

The term "Ebonics" sounds awkward to me, but certainly less so than the alternative.

Still, I would prefer people to speak proper English rather than "proper Ebonics".

[conuly]

"Proper English" is a construct to entrap little minds. The proper way to speak is the way that is least offensive to those around you, which often includes speaking in the same dialect as they speak, especially if it is your native dialect.

Besides, there are many things which AAVE expresses better than standard American English. There are so many ways of speaking in this world, why would we want to lessen that by restricting ourselves to just one form of speech? I'd rather people spoke Latin instead of English, because I like Latin and think it's cool. But if there were only Latin in this world, instead of Latin, and French, and English, and Mandarin, and Quecha, I don't think that'd be a good thing.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

What I mean when I say proper is standard, and gramatically correct - I do not consider Ebonics to be either of those things.

I don't know about speaking Latin, as I don't speak it myself, but I wouldn't mind if the whole world sung Latin. That would be lovely.

[conuly]

Standard is a fashion choice, little more.

As for grammatically correct, any dialect of any language is grammatically correct. There is no such thing as an ungrammatical dialect. The statement "grammatically correct" in this context is meaningless. What you mean is that non-standard dialects don't have the same grammar as standard dialects, which is self-evident, and they shouldn't. English, despite the efforts of certain now-deceased parties, doesn't have the same grammar as Latin, but that doesn't make English "non-grammatically correct".

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Yes, but English isn't a dialect of Latin (although, being not a linguist, I may be horrifically wrong on that one), but a language. Ebonics, however, is a dialect of English and not a language.

And, I was going to say something else, but have gotten distracted by Bob the Builder, and I think I feel my IQ dropping as we speak. (How many times can a 4 year old watch the same half-hour show before imploding? I don't know, but we MUST be getting close to the breaking point.)

[conuly]

But AAVE isn't a dialect of standard English, both AAVE and standard English (all Standard Englishes) are dialects of English.

It's like a clothing choice. There are many situations in which it is appropriate to wear a suit and tie, where other options are inappropriate. However, that doesn't mean that the only acceptable garment is a suit and tie. It would be absurd to claim that.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Um... Proving that I'm not a linguist, what is AAVE exactly?

Oh, I'm certainly not saying "No one should be allowed to speak Ebonics or any other dialect", I would just prefer not to hear it, for the same reason I have avoided a strong Southern accent all my life - I personally think it makes the speaker sound somewhat ignorant.

So you're right, it really is an opinion thing.

....Can we fix it? Yes, we can! ..Arrrrrgh.

[conuly]

Did you read the link? AAVE = African American Vernacular English. Ebonics, though that's a stupid sounding name.

As for "it makes the speaker sound ignorant", well... Here's where I hush for fear of insulting thee.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Right. I really should have put two and two together. Being surrounded by small children is killing my concentration.

*laugh* Fear not for insulting me. If you insult me at this point, especially given the previous, I think I deserve it. Alas.

[conuly]

*hugs*

I like you. I don't like ignorance of various linguistic thingies, but I've long since grown accustomed to that. So I am not going to insult you.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Like I said, I'm no linguist. Someday, I'll get into it and really study, but as it stands now, I'm a writer geek and not a language geek.

Seriously, though, feel free to smack knowledge into me if you need to. I won't mind. *hugs*

[conuly]

I'm hardly an expert. This is just the one fact I've had drilled into me from several successive professors and textbooks.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Still, you're far more expert than I.

I know a lot about some things, and only a little about others. In this case, I'm counting on you to smack sense into my head! ;o;

[conuly]

Yes, well, I feel I must give that disclaimer after the person who took my statement (on my lookup) that "prescriptivist linguistics is the tool of the oppressor" as completely serious, and said it was a "cop-out" for me to claim that I said that (mostly) in jest. Apparently, the fact that the sentence is sandwiched between claims that I rule the universe and that I hunt dragons wasn't a big enough clue....

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

What?! You hunt dragons?! I'm reporting you to PETA, you animal hater!!!

*laugh*

Oh, look, I've gone off on a rabbit trail.

[conuly]

No. Dragons. Rabbits are those vicious beasts over there - *points vaguely up*

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

We must fear the rabbits, for they are dangerous, and have sharp pointy teeth! *postures*

[unnecessaryhat.livejournal.com]

I agree completely- standard English is a dialect of English spoken by those in power. It is in no way inherently better than other dialects. Of course, if everyone spoke the same exact dialect, we all might understand eachother better. But how boring would that be?

[targaff.livejournal.com]

Have you seen this article (http://nerv-un.net/~targaff/ebonics.html) before, by any chance? I came across it years ago, back when I was still doing linguistics; passed it on to my then lecturer, and he's been using it as part of the course ever since, so he says.

Thought it might interest you, anyhow.

[conuly]

I've seen several such articles, but not that particular one, thanks.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

The term "Ebonics" sounds awkward to me, but certainly less so than the alternative.

Still, I would prefer people to speak proper English rather than "proper Ebonics".

[conuly]

"Proper English" is a construct to entrap little minds. The proper way to speak is the way that is least offensive to those around you, which often includes speaking in the same dialect as they speak, especially if it is your native dialect.

Besides, there are many things which AAVE expresses better than standard American English. There are so many ways of speaking in this world, why would we want to lessen that by restricting ourselves to just one form of speech? I'd rather people spoke Latin instead of English, because I like Latin and think it's cool. But if there were only Latin in this world, instead of Latin, and French, and English, and Mandarin, and Quecha, I don't think that'd be a good thing.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

What I mean when I say proper is standard, and gramatically correct - I do not consider Ebonics to be either of those things.

I don't know about speaking Latin, as I don't speak it myself, but I wouldn't mind if the whole world sung Latin. That would be lovely.

[conuly]

Standard is a fashion choice, little more.

As for grammatically correct, any dialect of any language is grammatically correct. There is no such thing as an ungrammatical dialect. The statement "grammatically correct" in this context is meaningless. What you mean is that non-standard dialects don't have the same grammar as standard dialects, which is self-evident, and they shouldn't. English, despite the efforts of certain now-deceased parties, doesn't have the same grammar as Latin, but that doesn't make English "non-grammatically correct".

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Yes, but English isn't a dialect of Latin (although, being not a linguist, I may be horrifically wrong on that one), but a language. Ebonics, however, is a dialect of English and not a language.

And, I was going to say something else, but have gotten distracted by Bob the Builder, and I think I feel my IQ dropping as we speak. (How many times can a 4 year old watch the same half-hour show before imploding? I don't know, but we MUST be getting close to the breaking point.)

[conuly]

But AAVE isn't a dialect of standard English, both AAVE and standard English (all Standard Englishes) are dialects of English.

It's like a clothing choice. There are many situations in which it is appropriate to wear a suit and tie, where other options are inappropriate. However, that doesn't mean that the only acceptable garment is a suit and tie. It would be absurd to claim that.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Um... Proving that I'm not a linguist, what is AAVE exactly?

Oh, I'm certainly not saying "No one should be allowed to speak Ebonics or any other dialect", I would just prefer not to hear it, for the same reason I have avoided a strong Southern accent all my life - I personally think it makes the speaker sound somewhat ignorant.

So you're right, it really is an opinion thing.

....Can we fix it? Yes, we can! ..Arrrrrgh.

[conuly]

Did you read the link? AAVE = African American Vernacular English. Ebonics, though that's a stupid sounding name.

As for "it makes the speaker sound ignorant", well... Here's where I hush for fear of insulting thee.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Right. I really should have put two and two together. Being surrounded by small children is killing my concentration.

*laugh* Fear not for insulting me. If you insult me at this point, especially given the previous, I think I deserve it. Alas.

[conuly]

*hugs*

I like you. I don't like ignorance of various linguistic thingies, but I've long since grown accustomed to that. So I am not going to insult you.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Like I said, I'm no linguist. Someday, I'll get into it and really study, but as it stands now, I'm a writer geek and not a language geek.

Seriously, though, feel free to smack knowledge into me if you need to. I won't mind. *hugs*

[conuly]

I'm hardly an expert. This is just the one fact I've had drilled into me from several successive professors and textbooks.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Still, you're far more expert than I.

I know a lot about some things, and only a little about others. In this case, I'm counting on you to smack sense into my head! ;o;

[conuly]

Yes, well, I feel I must give that disclaimer after the person who took my statement (on my lookup) that "prescriptivist linguistics is the tool of the oppressor" as completely serious, and said it was a "cop-out" for me to claim that I said that (mostly) in jest. Apparently, the fact that the sentence is sandwiched between claims that I rule the universe and that I hunt dragons wasn't a big enough clue....

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

What?! You hunt dragons?! I'm reporting you to PETA, you animal hater!!!

*laugh*

Oh, look, I've gone off on a rabbit trail.

[conuly]

No. Dragons. Rabbits are those vicious beasts over there - *points vaguely up*

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

We must fear the rabbits, for they are dangerous, and have sharp pointy teeth! *postures*

[unnecessaryhat.livejournal.com]

I agree completely- standard English is a dialect of English spoken by those in power. It is in no way inherently better than other dialects. Of course, if everyone spoke the same exact dialect, we all might understand eachother better. But how boring would that be?

[targaff.livejournal.com]

Have you seen this article (http://nerv-un.net/~targaff/ebonics.html) before, by any chance? I came across it years ago, back when I was still doing linguistics; passed it on to my then lecturer, and he's been using it as part of the course ever since, so he says.

Thought it might interest you, anyhow.

[conuly]

I've seen several such articles, but not that particular one, thanks.