Three articles from alternet

[conuly]

One aboug flag worship.

Now, longtime readers of my journal know what I think about the Pledge of Allegience. Indeed, I suspect that I'll have to type up a whole new rant about it soon. Non-longtime readers of my journal can probably guess my general feelings on the subject just based on context, even if they don't know the specifics.

Let's have a new rant for a short time. Most people who support laws or constitutional amendments about the treatment of the flag think of themselves as patriotic Americans. So patriotic, in fact, that they hold a symbol, a flag, in higher regard than one of the basic tenets of American society - the right to freedom of expression. Except, I've noticed something about many of these people. They display their flag proudly - And go out of their way to violate the flag code as they do it. You know, that thing which outlines the proper and respectful way to handle a flag. They let the flag touch the ground. They keep it up all day, every day, unlit at night. They keep it up in all weather, and when it finally becomes so tattered and torn that even they realize it can't be recognized as a flag anymore - they toss it in the trash! (The proper way to dispose of a flag is, of course, to burn it. Or possibly to bury it, but I love telling people that good Americans burn flags.) Oh, and they do a bunch of other things.

I myself think of the flag as a simple symbol when I'm in a good mood and a waste of cloth when I'm not, but I'm not the one being a hypocrite here.

Okay, that rant was random. But man, it pisses me off sometimes.

There's also an article about Iraq.

And one about a PBS documentary on how a kid turns from being very conservative to... well, go read. This is why they want to remove funding from PBS, you know.

Comments

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I don't pledge for religious reasons.

Besides Quakers, I believe a certain portion of fundamentalist Christians are the same...usually more of the seperatist sorts.

[conuly]

Jehovah's Witnesses won't pledge, and they were, I believe, the first court case against requiring children to say it.

I don't say it for a whole number of reasons, starting with "The Whole God Thing (version: isn't that unconstitutional)", meandering past "The Whole God Thing (version: I don't believe in changing an author's words without their consent, and boy did he get it right when he said that mentioning God would be divisive)", taking a cursory glance at "The Whole God Thing (version: if there is a God, do I really want to get on his bad side like this?") and ending up at my favorite argument: "It's wrong to compell people to promise something, and it's very wrong to teach children to daily make promises they don't even understand."

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

We don't do that oath thing either...(and I think that's been since the get-go in the USA, with our court system).

And I'm reading about a court challenge with a Mennonite kid, in W. Va -- it's pending a decision.

http://freedomfriday.org/ffstart.asp

My daughter has had it explained to her and the school is ok with the lack of pledge thing, and my son is too young to understand right now but when he can I will explain and he can make his own decision.

Also, what I think is an interesting essay on Christian Patriotism:

http://www.plainlydressed.com/ and click on the flag, it has frames or somethign that I cant get a direct link.

There are so many reasons for Christians to NOT say the pledge and act the way they do with their overblown patriotism, that reading about what I think are 'true fundies' facinates me.

[conuly]

Right click on the flag. Click on "copy link". The URL to the specific page is http://plainlydressed.bravepages.com/patrioticlettersfile.html

Will read the rest, but first had to stop to give the Advice of DOOOOOM! (I love the word doom.)

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Why didn't I think of that? I was there and didn't hit BACK and just looked curiously at the dropdown menu on top.

It's a long read and very dry but skimming it will give you the jist of it, and that's "REAL CHRISTIANS/REAL CHURCHES SHOULD STAY THE HELL OUTTA POLITICS!"

Ok.

Maybe it's a bit more complex than that....

[conuly]

Oh, and there's also the "I'm not a liar, and there's not a lot of liberty and justice for all in this damn country" and the "Gee, if you're so patriotic, when's the last time *you* saluted the flag as part of your daily activities" and the "I prefer the American's Creed anyway" parts of this. And the vaguely uncomfortable feeling of being nationalistic.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I recently got a flag to give myself a sense of 'reclaiming' it. I'm not pledging to it, but I am showing something patriotic. The extreme right doesn't own the flag, it's mine, too.

It's like my being more vocal about being Christian. I shouldn't let the extreme right speak for me there, either. By dancing around the subject that is exactly what I was doing, giving people (and politicians) the idea that all Christians believed X, and that's not the case. I feel it is important for more Christians to reclaim their voice, and for those so inclined to reclaim their flag as well.

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Argh, I totally agree on the flag thing! These people hold a symbol in such high regard, yet they can't even respect that symbol that they hold so dear... it makes no sense.

It's as bad as the people who idolize the Ten Commandments, obviously forgetting all about the second one (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:4;&version=31;) in the process.

[conuly]

Which set of Ten Commandments?

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

The people that clamor to have the Commandments displayed in public places, like Justice Roy Moore in Alabama, always seem to be referring to the set that includes the prohibition against graven images.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I am proud to be the third generation in my family to object to the pledge of allegience - each of us with a different reason and independently.

My grandfather objected to "and to the flag". He said he was willing to make an oath to his country, but he would not make an oath to an object. The flag is a piece of cloth and that isn't worthy of his loyalty.

My father objected to "and under God"

I was taught a bunch of long, hard words in kindergarten. I went home to my sisters and told them that school had confused me. I was taught to say something, but I didn't know what it meant, and it had many hard words in it. So, I asked if they'd explain it piece by piece. I said, it starts "I pledge allegience" and I didn't know what "pledge allegience" meant. They explained that it was an oath, that I was making a promise. I said, oh! Then the rest of it doesn't matter, because I'm definitely not okay with making a promise when they didn't even tell me what it meant. And I added it to the long list of ways in which adults showed me massive disrespect and proved themselves to be untrustworthy and vile creatures.

I think there can only be two possible paths to being forced to make a pledge on a regular basis (and I do consider myself to have been forced. No one told me it was optional within the context of an environment where not doing what I was told always led to being punished, so I had no reasonable way to know I could safely object to this instance (I mouthed it for years rather than saying it)). Either you feel betrayed and violated for being forced to make a pledge you did not choose or you learn that pledges are meaningless cheap things and you are under no requirement to keep pledges. I do not feel either outcome is good. I do not feel having kindergarteners, 5 year olds, saying the pledge was in any way appropriate. And they didn't even attempt to explain what it meant.

[conuly]

I agree with your reason. Every so often, those columns that feature cute phrases from kids will have a submission from a mom whose kid horribly mangled the pledge, or (more often) thought it ended with "you may now be seated". That's cute? I find it absolutely unconscionable.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I have a problem with the entire columns of cute things kids say. Sometimes they are okay, but usually they seem simply to be viewing children with disrespect because they are ignorant or inexperienced. Why is that acceptable? Is it okay in other contexts to laugh at people because they are inexperienced?

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Hm, I've never viewed them as being disrespectful. But then again, that could be because I mock the younger version of myself quite frequently!

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Yeah! I remember myself having quite a few mishearings/misinterpretations. I can't remember all the details, but I do remember thinking that "allegiance" had something to do with being alleged of something, for instance. Also, I thought that the US was "one nation under guard"; it made perfect sense to a first-grader's mind, given that there's a national military and all!

Come to think of it, I still prefer that latter mishearing to the real line that was misheard...

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I don't pledge for religious reasons.

Besides Quakers, I believe a certain portion of fundamentalist Christians are the same...usually more of the seperatist sorts.

[conuly]

Jehovah's Witnesses won't pledge, and they were, I believe, the first court case against requiring children to say it.

I don't say it for a whole number of reasons, starting with "The Whole God Thing (version: isn't that unconstitutional)", meandering past "The Whole God Thing (version: I don't believe in changing an author's words without their consent, and boy did he get it right when he said that mentioning God would be divisive)", taking a cursory glance at "The Whole God Thing (version: if there is a God, do I really want to get on his bad side like this?") and ending up at my favorite argument: "It's wrong to compell people to promise something, and it's very wrong to teach children to daily make promises they don't even understand."

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

We don't do that oath thing either...(and I think that's been since the get-go in the USA, with our court system).

And I'm reading about a court challenge with a Mennonite kid, in W. Va -- it's pending a decision.

http://freedomfriday.org/ffstart.asp

My daughter has had it explained to her and the school is ok with the lack of pledge thing, and my son is too young to understand right now but when he can I will explain and he can make his own decision.

Also, what I think is an interesting essay on Christian Patriotism:

http://www.plainlydressed.com/ and click on the flag, it has frames or somethign that I cant get a direct link.

There are so many reasons for Christians to NOT say the pledge and act the way they do with their overblown patriotism, that reading about what I think are 'true fundies' facinates me.

[conuly]

Right click on the flag. Click on "copy link". The URL to the specific page is http://plainlydressed.bravepages.com/patrioticlettersfile.html

Will read the rest, but first had to stop to give the Advice of DOOOOOM! (I love the word doom.)

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Why didn't I think of that? I was there and didn't hit BACK and just looked curiously at the dropdown menu on top.

It's a long read and very dry but skimming it will give you the jist of it, and that's "REAL CHRISTIANS/REAL CHURCHES SHOULD STAY THE HELL OUTTA POLITICS!"

Ok.

Maybe it's a bit more complex than that....

[conuly]

Oh, and there's also the "I'm not a liar, and there's not a lot of liberty and justice for all in this damn country" and the "Gee, if you're so patriotic, when's the last time *you* saluted the flag as part of your daily activities" and the "I prefer the American's Creed anyway" parts of this. And the vaguely uncomfortable feeling of being nationalistic.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I recently got a flag to give myself a sense of 'reclaiming' it. I'm not pledging to it, but I am showing something patriotic. The extreme right doesn't own the flag, it's mine, too.

It's like my being more vocal about being Christian. I shouldn't let the extreme right speak for me there, either. By dancing around the subject that is exactly what I was doing, giving people (and politicians) the idea that all Christians believed X, and that's not the case. I feel it is important for more Christians to reclaim their voice, and for those so inclined to reclaim their flag as well.

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Argh, I totally agree on the flag thing! These people hold a symbol in such high regard, yet they can't even respect that symbol that they hold so dear... it makes no sense.

It's as bad as the people who idolize the Ten Commandments, obviously forgetting all about the second one (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:4;&version=31;) in the process.

[conuly]

Which set of Ten Commandments?

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

The people that clamor to have the Commandments displayed in public places, like Justice Roy Moore in Alabama, always seem to be referring to the set that includes the prohibition against graven images.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I am proud to be the third generation in my family to object to the pledge of allegience - each of us with a different reason and independently.

My grandfather objected to "and to the flag". He said he was willing to make an oath to his country, but he would not make an oath to an object. The flag is a piece of cloth and that isn't worthy of his loyalty.

My father objected to "and under God"

I was taught a bunch of long, hard words in kindergarten. I went home to my sisters and told them that school had confused me. I was taught to say something, but I didn't know what it meant, and it had many hard words in it. So, I asked if they'd explain it piece by piece. I said, it starts "I pledge allegience" and I didn't know what "pledge allegience" meant. They explained that it was an oath, that I was making a promise. I said, oh! Then the rest of it doesn't matter, because I'm definitely not okay with making a promise when they didn't even tell me what it meant. And I added it to the long list of ways in which adults showed me massive disrespect and proved themselves to be untrustworthy and vile creatures.

I think there can only be two possible paths to being forced to make a pledge on a regular basis (and I do consider myself to have been forced. No one told me it was optional within the context of an environment where not doing what I was told always led to being punished, so I had no reasonable way to know I could safely object to this instance (I mouthed it for years rather than saying it)). Either you feel betrayed and violated for being forced to make a pledge you did not choose or you learn that pledges are meaningless cheap things and you are under no requirement to keep pledges. I do not feel either outcome is good. I do not feel having kindergarteners, 5 year olds, saying the pledge was in any way appropriate. And they didn't even attempt to explain what it meant.

[conuly]

I agree with your reason. Every so often, those columns that feature cute phrases from kids will have a submission from a mom whose kid horribly mangled the pledge, or (more often) thought it ended with "you may now be seated". That's cute? I find it absolutely unconscionable.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I have a problem with the entire columns of cute things kids say. Sometimes they are okay, but usually they seem simply to be viewing children with disrespect because they are ignorant or inexperienced. Why is that acceptable? Is it okay in other contexts to laugh at people because they are inexperienced?

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Hm, I've never viewed them as being disrespectful. But then again, that could be because I mock the younger version of myself quite frequently!

[codeman38.livejournal.com]

Yeah! I remember myself having quite a few mishearings/misinterpretations. I can't remember all the details, but I do remember thinking that "allegiance" had something to do with being alleged of something, for instance. Also, I thought that the US was "one nation under guard"; it made perfect sense to a first-grader's mind, given that there's a national military and all!

Come to think of it, I still prefer that latter mishearing to the real line that was misheard...