Taken from metaquotes

[conuly]

I'm not sure if I want to laugh or cry.

Comments

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

Third option- throw up.

I was actually fine with the books, admiring the old illustrations and old-fashioned ideas, right up to disfiguring and destroying women's genitals to keep them from masturbating. Suddenly the book wasn't so much quaint as sick.

[conuly]

Y'know, that's how routine infant circumcision (not the same as religious infant circumcision) started in the US.

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

We had the boys done... but it doesn't destroy their sexual pleasure, or so I assume. I never knew girls were done in the US. I thought it was some thirld world village practice. What an eye-opener.

[conuly]

it doesn't destroy their sexual pleasure, or so I assume.

Most of the research indicates otherwise. Or rather, that it reduces the capacity for pleasure. Some boys who were circumcised grow up to be men with much more serious problems than most, who are unable to orgasm, or only with a lot of help.

Which is one of the reasons I'm completely against non-medically necessary operations on non-consenting patients. Which includes infants.

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

20 some years ago it really wasn't much of a question. The Drs assumed the parents wanted it done and the parents didn't know any different, at least not in the middle America town I had my kids in.

[conuly]

Ah, okay. I assumed, for some reason, that your kids were younger. And I do believe that in this day and age, there's very little excuse for not researching things like this. But 20 years ago, the world was different. And it was, I think, easier to think that doctors know best.

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

No, my sons are 20 and 21. You probably thought they were younger because I look so young myself...erm, NO?
Okay then, perhaps because I do refer to them as the "boys" or the "kids" because to me they will always be "the boys."

[conuly]

Probably because of how you refered to them :)

Anyway, I do tend to get a bit hyper on this subject, so if we can wander away from it...?

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

Sure thing:)

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I have first hand seen the damage done by RIC, and it isn't pretty and the man is very resentful. It wasnt HUGE damage, like anything chopped off, but if it was left alone he would have had a more enjoyable sex life.

We did not perform that plastic surgery on our sons. They can do it, if they desire, when they are old enough to make that decision.

Same as if they wanted a piercing or tattoo -- although an ear piercing would be a younger age. The tattoo and circ they could do at 18, and even then I would hope they'd be informed consumers.

The nurse CRIED tears of joy when we said we weren't doing it to Ted.

[l33tminion]

This again? *groans* And your use of anecdotal evidence is aggravating, even though I agree with your general conclusion. "Some boys" who weren't circumcised have "much more serious problems than most", too.

Incidentally, since our last discussion on this topic, I did have a chance to speak to my parents about it. Apparently, I didn't have a bris (which was news to me), and my parents did consider the alternatives and the relative risks and benefits, trying to err on the side of caution. However, according to them, medical consensus at the time overwhelmingly supported the procedure as having benefits outweighing its drawbacks. (I know original support for the procedure had to do with stopping masturbation, but I assume that, by '86, the reasonings behind medical consensus had nothing to do with that.)

(On the other hand, my little brother did have a bris. My mom wasn't too happy with me being out of her presence for several hours for my circumcision (since I was only a few days old). According to my parents, my brother was only uncomfortable for about half a minute after his circumcision, but apparently the mohel was particularly skilled. Of course, I only have my parent's word on that. *shrugs*)

According to my parents, if they had another boy now it's very likely they'd choose differently because medical consensus on the issue has changed quite a bit. (However, that won't happen, so it's kind of a moot point for them.)

[conuly]

Yes, this again. I don't think that anecdotal evidence is the same as "that's what most studies are showing" nowadays. Nor do I think that tailoring my talk to avoid being offensive to my friends is any of your concern. I thought it might be a bit rude to say "you risked the chance that your boys would not orgasm, ever, and this has been medically documented, all because you didn't bother to do any research before this procedure - which, if you had bothered to do, would have indicated that nowhere in the world outside of the US is this considered a desirable operation".

You don't have to participate in this conversation when I have already ended it with the person I was originally speaking to.

[l33tminion]

"I don't think that anecdotal evidence is the same as 'that's what most studies are showing' nowadays."

Of course not. I was only objecting to the sentence I quoted.

"nowhere in the world outside of the US is this considered a desirable operation"

As a nitpick, that's not true.

"You don't have to participate in this conversation when I have already ended it with the person I was originally speaking to."

Well, if I was cutting into a private conversation, I apologize. I also apologize if I sounded offended. (I might have been a bit annoyed, but that's not really your fault.)

[thren0dy.livejournal.com]

Oh my ...

That is priceless. I'm actually astonished to think of an American piece of "literature" as recently as the fifties was advocating female circumcision. Although I shouldn't be surprised, they were still lobotomizing people then. :/

I never heard of female circumcision as a preventative measure for masturbation, I know a widely-used justification for it is to keep women from being filthy whores and enjoying sex. *eyeroll*

[leora.livejournal.com]

Wow... why didn't I think of it! I've been searching and searching for a medical cause for my symptoms: fatigue, loss of mental clarity, unexplained blindness, muscular weakness, etc.

Masturbation! Obviously I've been masturbating too much.

Wel, now I don't feel too bad about having forgotten to call the neurologist to see about an appointment.

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

Third option- throw up.

I was actually fine with the books, admiring the old illustrations and old-fashioned ideas, right up to disfiguring and destroying women's genitals to keep them from masturbating. Suddenly the book wasn't so much quaint as sick.

[conuly]

Y'know, that's how routine infant circumcision (not the same as religious infant circumcision) started in the US.

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

We had the boys done... but it doesn't destroy their sexual pleasure, or so I assume. I never knew girls were done in the US. I thought it was some thirld world village practice. What an eye-opener.

[conuly]

it doesn't destroy their sexual pleasure, or so I assume.

Most of the research indicates otherwise. Or rather, that it reduces the capacity for pleasure. Some boys who were circumcised grow up to be men with much more serious problems than most, who are unable to orgasm, or only with a lot of help.

Which is one of the reasons I'm completely against non-medically necessary operations on non-consenting patients. Which includes infants.

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

20 some years ago it really wasn't much of a question. The Drs assumed the parents wanted it done and the parents didn't know any different, at least not in the middle America town I had my kids in.

[conuly]

Ah, okay. I assumed, for some reason, that your kids were younger. And I do believe that in this day and age, there's very little excuse for not researching things like this. But 20 years ago, the world was different. And it was, I think, easier to think that doctors know best.

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

No, my sons are 20 and 21. You probably thought they were younger because I look so young myself...erm, NO?
Okay then, perhaps because I do refer to them as the "boys" or the "kids" because to me they will always be "the boys."

[conuly]

Probably because of how you refered to them :)

Anyway, I do tend to get a bit hyper on this subject, so if we can wander away from it...?

[beccak1961.livejournal.com]

Sure thing:)

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I have first hand seen the damage done by RIC, and it isn't pretty and the man is very resentful. It wasnt HUGE damage, like anything chopped off, but if it was left alone he would have had a more enjoyable sex life.

We did not perform that plastic surgery on our sons. They can do it, if they desire, when they are old enough to make that decision.

Same as if they wanted a piercing or tattoo -- although an ear piercing would be a younger age. The tattoo and circ they could do at 18, and even then I would hope they'd be informed consumers.

The nurse CRIED tears of joy when we said we weren't doing it to Ted.

[l33tminion]

This again? *groans* And your use of anecdotal evidence is aggravating, even though I agree with your general conclusion. "Some boys" who weren't circumcised have "much more serious problems than most", too.

Incidentally, since our last discussion on this topic, I did have a chance to speak to my parents about it. Apparently, I didn't have a bris (which was news to me), and my parents did consider the alternatives and the relative risks and benefits, trying to err on the side of caution. However, according to them, medical consensus at the time overwhelmingly supported the procedure as having benefits outweighing its drawbacks. (I know original support for the procedure had to do with stopping masturbation, but I assume that, by '86, the reasonings behind medical consensus had nothing to do with that.)

(On the other hand, my little brother did have a bris. My mom wasn't too happy with me being out of her presence for several hours for my circumcision (since I was only a few days old). According to my parents, my brother was only uncomfortable for about half a minute after his circumcision, but apparently the mohel was particularly skilled. Of course, I only have my parent's word on that. *shrugs*)

According to my parents, if they had another boy now it's very likely they'd choose differently because medical consensus on the issue has changed quite a bit. (However, that won't happen, so it's kind of a moot point for them.)

[conuly]

Yes, this again. I don't think that anecdotal evidence is the same as "that's what most studies are showing" nowadays. Nor do I think that tailoring my talk to avoid being offensive to my friends is any of your concern. I thought it might be a bit rude to say "you risked the chance that your boys would not orgasm, ever, and this has been medically documented, all because you didn't bother to do any research before this procedure - which, if you had bothered to do, would have indicated that nowhere in the world outside of the US is this considered a desirable operation".

You don't have to participate in this conversation when I have already ended it with the person I was originally speaking to.

[l33tminion]

"I don't think that anecdotal evidence is the same as 'that's what most studies are showing' nowadays."

Of course not. I was only objecting to the sentence I quoted.

"nowhere in the world outside of the US is this considered a desirable operation"

As a nitpick, that's not true.

"You don't have to participate in this conversation when I have already ended it with the person I was originally speaking to."

Well, if I was cutting into a private conversation, I apologize. I also apologize if I sounded offended. (I might have been a bit annoyed, but that's not really your fault.)

[thren0dy.livejournal.com]

Oh my ...

That is priceless. I'm actually astonished to think of an American piece of "literature" as recently as the fifties was advocating female circumcision. Although I shouldn't be surprised, they were still lobotomizing people then. :/

I never heard of female circumcision as a preventative measure for masturbation, I know a widely-used justification for it is to keep women from being filthy whores and enjoying sex. *eyeroll*

[leora.livejournal.com]

Wow... why didn't I think of it! I've been searching and searching for a medical cause for my symptoms: fatigue, loss of mental clarity, unexplained blindness, muscular weakness, etc.

Masturbation! Obviously I've been masturbating too much.

Wel, now I don't feel too bad about having forgotten to call the neurologist to see about an appointment.