Belated thoughts on A Trip to the Dentist...

[conuly]

Yes, I know, I keep talking about it!

There's a lot of argument over whether or not Veronica was raped, which, mihi, seems stupid. Sex without her legal consent = rape, end of story. Yes, Duncan was also drugged without his knowledge, but again, sex without ones legal consent is rape.

There's also occasional people whining that this episode was unfulfilling, including my favorite comment that the noir roots don't matter if it leaves viewers feeling "unsatisfied", which I thought was part of the point of this format...?

Strangely, though, I haven't heard anybody complain about the unreliable narrator effect. People argue over whether or not she was raped by Duncan, but... there were a lot of people at that party, many of whom (Dick and Beaver?) actively wanted to harm her. Sure, Beaver says he ran outside and threw up, that nothing happened - but why do we believe him? Because he says he's telling the truth? What would you tell somebody who was mad at you? Sure, various other outstanding individuals say that they didn't do anything with Veronica, but, again, what would you say?

And another thought. Is it just me, or does Logan have some sort of watered-down death wish? He insults Weevil after shoving him, okay, but as he does it he stands back and spreads his arm out wide. Weevil could've knocked him down before he would've been able to react. He deliberately antagonizes his dad (though I'm told this is a not uncommon coping method of abused kids, to cause the abuse so that they don't have to wait. Could be wrong about that, though). It's just... *shrugs*.

Comments

[moggymania.livejournal.com]

"I'm told this is a not uncommon coping method of abused kids, to cause the abuse so that they don't have to wait. Could be wrong about that, though"

No, it's unfortunately fairly common...causes total havoc when the 'kid' grows up, assumes he/she is going to be abused, and proceeds to provoke hapless romantic parnters. If they're lucky, the partner turns out to be non-violent/non-abusive, though the total confusion at dealing with *that* can make a whole new layer of weird issues show up.

(Speaking from experience, unfortunately...)

[conuly]

*hugs*

I suspect (though I really don't know, and also don't especially care) that this is what's behind a lot of Lizziey's relative Junior's behaviour. The kid lies, steals, lies about stealing, lies to get other people in trouble, and is beat up by his dad apparently quite often.

[xandiwillflailx.livejournal.com]

it only took me like, 3 readings for me to figure out you were talking about Veronica Mars...haha, i´m improving!

[conuly]

The icon should be a hint, as it features Logan.

Ah, Logan. Psychotic or not, I just want to sit and hug him. Um. From a safe distance.

[xandiwillflailx.livejournal.com]

it would have been a hint...if i had any slight inkling of who Logan is or how he is related to Veronica Mars. :)

[conuly]

Well, now you know. Pink icon = Logan = Veronica Mars.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

I have similar feelings toward Logan. Hugging from a safe distance.

[conuly]

I also want to go up to Veronica and remind her of the adage "abused children grow up to be abusers" because, while not inevitable, that often does appear to be the direction in which poor Logan is headed.

[malantha.livejournal.com]

If Veronica was raped (because she was drugged and therefore could not consent) then Duncan was raped as well (because he was drugged and therefore could not consent).

I also have some weird attraction to Logan, though I'm not sure why! He's cute, and I think I feel sorry for him. That scene with his dad and the belt was one of the more disturbing abuse scenes I've seen.

[conuly]

If Veronica was raped (because she was drugged and therefore could not consent) then Duncan was raped as well (because he was drugged and therefore could not consent).

Never said otherwise. Blame falls on Dick and Logan, respectively.

[ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com]

Heh. I'll have you know that I checked out and got hooked on this show simply because my curiousity was aroused by reading all your posts about it!

My thoughts are as follows:

1) It seemed like Veronica was awfully forgiving of Logan, considering the pretty major part he played in The Night She Can't Remember. I consider both her and Duncan victims at this point and lay the responsibility at Dick's and Logan's feet. Also, it's kind of disturbing that Logan was buying GBH at all. As far as I know, that's pretty much a drug you *only* use if you're planning on drugging someone to sleep with them. Kind of yucky.

2) On the other hand, Logan does seem to care for Veronica. He did 'fess up without any prompting from her. He gets some points for coming clean, but I still think she was awfully quick to forgive him as completely as she seemed to.

3) Celeste is high on my list of suspects for being Lilly's killer. It seems pretty obvious that Lilly had information that she shouldn't have had, and that she was about to share it with Veronica. Also, she was not the favored child. Though I have considered the possibility that she actually meant to kill Veronica. Sure, they don't really look alike, but they look similar enough to be able to swap fake IDs, and it *was* dark out.

4) I'm guessing the hidden camera was probably put there by either Haaron or Lynn.

5) About the "unreliable bystander effect", yeah, I pretty much don't consider most of Neptune to be particularly trustworthy at this point. I'd count Mack, Wallace, Mrs. Fennell and Keith to be alright, everyone else is pretty suspect (I'm not just talking in terms of Lilly's murder, but just overall good-guyness/bad-guyness).

6) I *really* don't know what to think of Logan at this point. One the one hand, I'm still kind of hoping he might turn out to be okay and get his shit together. On the other hand, giving a rape drug to your best friend so he can lose his inhibitions to get it on with his sister is pretty damned fucked up. I mean, what exactly was he thinking?

7) I may be the only person on earth who isn't sorry Lilly was murdered. She seemed like a terribly annoying, spoiled, vapid teen, even in flashbacks. *dons asbestos suit*

I can't believe I got so sucked into this! This isn't normally the type of show I watch at all.

[conuly]

As far as I know, that's pretty much a drug you *only* use if you're planning on drugging someone to sleep with them.

As the insanely extensive discussion on TWoP shows, it's also used as a party drug. That's why they made such a big deal in the previous episode of saying "there were no roofies, it was GHB" because GHB isn't just a date rape drug.

I mean, what exactly was he thinking?

He wasn't. And by this point he was pretty wasted too. This does NOT begin to excuse his actions, but.

I may be the only person on earth who isn't sorry Lilly was murdered. She seemed like a terribly annoying, spoiled, vapid teen, even in flashbacks.

She reminds me of Lizziey, actually. Lizziey when she's being fun, not when I want to beat the crap out of her.

[ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com]

As the insanely extensive discussion on TWoP shows, it's also used as a party drug.

Okay, I didn't know that. That's a little bit better, I guess.

She reminds me of Lizziey, actually. Lizziey when she's being fun, not when I want to beat the crap out of her.

Okay, fair enough. I don't know Lizziey at all, so I can't judge.

[moggymania.livejournal.com]

"I'm told this is a not uncommon coping method of abused kids, to cause the abuse so that they don't have to wait. Could be wrong about that, though"

No, it's unfortunately fairly common...causes total havoc when the 'kid' grows up, assumes he/she is going to be abused, and proceeds to provoke hapless romantic parnters. If they're lucky, the partner turns out to be non-violent/non-abusive, though the total confusion at dealing with *that* can make a whole new layer of weird issues show up.

(Speaking from experience, unfortunately...)

[conuly]

*hugs*

I suspect (though I really don't know, and also don't especially care) that this is what's behind a lot of Lizziey's relative Junior's behaviour. The kid lies, steals, lies about stealing, lies to get other people in trouble, and is beat up by his dad apparently quite often.

[xandiwillflailx.livejournal.com]

it only took me like, 3 readings for me to figure out you were talking about Veronica Mars...haha, i´m improving!

[conuly]

The icon should be a hint, as it features Logan.

Ah, Logan. Psychotic or not, I just want to sit and hug him. Um. From a safe distance.

[xandiwillflailx.livejournal.com]

it would have been a hint...if i had any slight inkling of who Logan is or how he is related to Veronica Mars. :)

[conuly]

Well, now you know. Pink icon = Logan = Veronica Mars.

[rainbow-goddess.livejournal.com]

I have similar feelings toward Logan. Hugging from a safe distance.

[conuly]

I also want to go up to Veronica and remind her of the adage "abused children grow up to be abusers" because, while not inevitable, that often does appear to be the direction in which poor Logan is headed.

[malantha.livejournal.com]

If Veronica was raped (because she was drugged and therefore could not consent) then Duncan was raped as well (because he was drugged and therefore could not consent).

I also have some weird attraction to Logan, though I'm not sure why! He's cute, and I think I feel sorry for him. That scene with his dad and the belt was one of the more disturbing abuse scenes I've seen.

[conuly]

If Veronica was raped (because she was drugged and therefore could not consent) then Duncan was raped as well (because he was drugged and therefore could not consent).

Never said otherwise. Blame falls on Dick and Logan, respectively.

[ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com]

Heh. I'll have you know that I checked out and got hooked on this show simply because my curiousity was aroused by reading all your posts about it!

My thoughts are as follows:

1) It seemed like Veronica was awfully forgiving of Logan, considering the pretty major part he played in The Night She Can't Remember. I consider both her and Duncan victims at this point and lay the responsibility at Dick's and Logan's feet. Also, it's kind of disturbing that Logan was buying GBH at all. As far as I know, that's pretty much a drug you *only* use if you're planning on drugging someone to sleep with them. Kind of yucky.

2) On the other hand, Logan does seem to care for Veronica. He did 'fess up without any prompting from her. He gets some points for coming clean, but I still think she was awfully quick to forgive him as completely as she seemed to.

3) Celeste is high on my list of suspects for being Lilly's killer. It seems pretty obvious that Lilly had information that she shouldn't have had, and that she was about to share it with Veronica. Also, she was not the favored child. Though I have considered the possibility that she actually meant to kill Veronica. Sure, they don't really look alike, but they look similar enough to be able to swap fake IDs, and it *was* dark out.

4) I'm guessing the hidden camera was probably put there by either Haaron or Lynn.

5) About the "unreliable bystander effect", yeah, I pretty much don't consider most of Neptune to be particularly trustworthy at this point. I'd count Mack, Wallace, Mrs. Fennell and Keith to be alright, everyone else is pretty suspect (I'm not just talking in terms of Lilly's murder, but just overall good-guyness/bad-guyness).

6) I *really* don't know what to think of Logan at this point. One the one hand, I'm still kind of hoping he might turn out to be okay and get his shit together. On the other hand, giving a rape drug to your best friend so he can lose his inhibitions to get it on with his sister is pretty damned fucked up. I mean, what exactly was he thinking?

7) I may be the only person on earth who isn't sorry Lilly was murdered. She seemed like a terribly annoying, spoiled, vapid teen, even in flashbacks. *dons asbestos suit*

I can't believe I got so sucked into this! This isn't normally the type of show I watch at all.

[conuly]

As far as I know, that's pretty much a drug you *only* use if you're planning on drugging someone to sleep with them.

As the insanely extensive discussion on TWoP shows, it's also used as a party drug. That's why they made such a big deal in the previous episode of saying "there were no roofies, it was GHB" because GHB isn't just a date rape drug.

I mean, what exactly was he thinking?

He wasn't. And by this point he was pretty wasted too. This does NOT begin to excuse his actions, but.

I may be the only person on earth who isn't sorry Lilly was murdered. She seemed like a terribly annoying, spoiled, vapid teen, even in flashbacks.

She reminds me of Lizziey, actually. Lizziey when she's being fun, not when I want to beat the crap out of her.

[ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com]

As the insanely extensive discussion on TWoP shows, it's also used as a party drug.

Okay, I didn't know that. That's a little bit better, I guess.

She reminds me of Lizziey, actually. Lizziey when she's being fun, not when I want to beat the crap out of her.

Okay, fair enough. I don't know Lizziey at all, so I can't judge.