On infant circumcision.

[conuly]

Here's the thing. Parents do not own their children. Parents do not own their children's bodies.

Parents can't refuse lifesaving medical intervention for their children, even if their own religions forbid it, and they can't, ethically (screw the law, the law sucks) cause unnecessary damage to their children.

Circumcisions are unnecessary for the vast majority of boys. A small minority have diseases that do require the removal of an unhealthy foreskin.

An boy who will not be circumcised is not at risk of having part or all of the penis lopped off. This has happened, and not so long ago. A boy who will not be circumcised is at less of a risk of having infections during infancy, because the foreskin protects the penis from all the nasties in the diaper. A boy who is uncircumcised can grow up and change this. One who is circumcised can't. This is irreversible.

There is some evidence that removing the foreskin, even when it's done correctly, permanently impairs the ability to enjoy sex. Oh, not that guys still don't, but that it'd be easier if they were, y'know, intact. Like God made them. There is significant evidence that this sort of pain in infancy (and most circumcisions are still done without anesthesia) permanently rewires the pain receptors.

There are, of course, a number of good, perfectly valid reasons to circumcise.

1. Religion.

I'm not tackling this.

2. "He won't feel weird taking showers with other boys"

Does anybody still take showers like that anymore? No offense, but that seems like a way to encourage homosexuality, and I'm amazed the fundies still allow this.

At any rate, some 35% of infant males aren't circumcised. That's nearing half. These kids won't feel that weird.

3. "He should look like his daddy"

Is he a clone? No? Then he's not going to look like his daddy anyway. He'll live. And while I'm thrilled if you're actually comfortable with your own nudity, a lot of families who use this argument aren't. I don't know why they think their son will care.

4. "There are health benefits"

Actually, there really aren't, except that it helps you avoid cancer of the foreskin. And lopping off my breasts would help me avoid breast cancer, and performing routine appendectomies at birth would help people avoid appendecitis.

5. "It looks better"

Only if you're used to it. And dude? You're not fucking your son. If you are, you need to get serious help.

Well. Guess I didn't think these arguments were so valid after all.

Let's say I did. Let's say I really thought that circumcised guys look better, inherantly, and should all fit some obscure standard of conformity.

I still would be against routine infant circumcision.

In China, for many years they thought that small feet looked better, and bound girls feet, without their consent. This permanently damaged them. This is unacceptable.

If we thought that brands looked pretty, we still wouldn't find it acceptable to brand infants just because "it looks good" and "they won't remember it". We reject the concept of FGM, even though all these arguments have been used to justify it. Why is our custom different?

To be fair, I completely support the right of consenting adults to do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies. If you really want to cut off your labia, that's your own business. And if you really wish you'd been circumcised, and hate that foreskin, go ahead, get it chopped off. I support you.

But don't fuck with babies' private parts. You don't own them.

Comments

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

My perinatologist's nurse said, "by the way, Dr. X refuses to do circumcisions. You'll have to find another doctor to do it, if you want it."

However, the hospital really pushed it. Everywhere you went, they asked if you were doing it. My youngest was in NICU for 2 weeks, and once he was a bit stronger, they kept calling me telling me 'you forgot to sign the release for his circumcision'. I didn't forget a THING.

Finally I got a nurse who CRIED when I told her we weren't doing it. She said as a NICU nurse it really broke her heart -- starting with babies very small, very sick, then as soon as they are healthy enough to go home, they hold them down and cut off their foreskins. It's bad enough with normal kids, but imagine your kid fought for his life, was in agony for so long, and was alone in NICU for so long, and when that hell is almost over, you do more damage? Crazy.

With my second, too, the midwife asked, 'have you thought about circumcision' (we knew he was a boy) and when we told her that we did, and we weren't doing it, she said, 'oh, good, you won't need this, then' and put down the pile of anti-circ literature she had.

It's cosmetic surgery for babies, and that's nuts.

[neurotica0.livejournal.com]

What a wonderful story! Thank you for sharing.

I'm against circumcision for many, many reasons. Ridiculously enough, my boyfriend is all for it (this is assuming we eventually have children). I'm not exactly sure how to put my foot down on that one, except for stating the fact that if they want it done as adults, they can make that choice, but if I take something away from them, they can't get it back.

It's not that I value my belief over his. It's just that following his wish would be irreversible.

Actually, I can't fathom the fact that he would want to mutilate someone the way he has been mutilated. But, I guess that is all he knows and it just feels "natural" and "right" to him. He's probably not aware at all of what he's missing. Sad really.

[conuly]

Actually, I can't fathom the fact that he would want to mutilate someone the way he has been mutilated. But, I guess that is all he knows and it just feels "natural" and "right" to him. He's probably not aware at all of what he's missing. Sad really.

Saying now that circumcision is wrong would be admitting that he is, as you said, mutiliated and damaged. Who wants to admit that?

[neurotica0.livejournal.com]

Right. I've probably made him feel pretty bad about himself all these times I've gone off on circumcision. (And obviously, he can't help that he was circumcised.)

I think I need to make the distinction to him that I think he is fine, because what's done is done. I would have loved him no differently if he hadn't been circumcised. It's not like I see him as, "Eww, bad-deformed-mutilated-circumcised penis." It's just that I want to stop the cycle somewhere. Obviously, I don't expect him to magically uncircumcise himself, or hold anything against him for being uncircumcised.

Wow. We might have just solved something here. It wouldn't surprise me that if he took my belief to mean that I somehow felt something against him.

[neurotica0.livejournal.com]

Mmm, bad sentence structuring and miswording!
I meant:
Obviously, I don't expect him to magically uncircumcise himself, and I don't hold anything against him from being circumcised.

[conuly]

It might not even have been concious, him thinking "god, she hates me for my dick", but... yeah. That's also, I think, behind a lot of the arguments people make saying "I had formula, and I'm fine" (of course, they're comparing themselves to other people who had formula, which is logically invalid). They aren't reading the statement "breastmilk is better" as "gee, my mom was probably misinformed, but she did what she thought was best anyway", they're reading it as "your parents did the wrong thing by you, and you suffered", which is a very insulting statement.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Oh, he'll never see this anyways, and just don't look at him funny if you ever meet him. ;)

My husband considers himself mutilated and damaged, and is very unhappy with his circumcision. Things just arent quite 100% right as far as he is concerned. And there isn't a damn thing he can do about it.

But if he was uncut, and he was unhappy, at least he could have 'fixed' it. And fixed it at an age when he could have been given good anethesia, and given good painkillers afterwards, unlike infants.

[conuly]

*curses*

I had snark tags right before and after the last three lines. Sorry about this!

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I'm just snarky by default. ;)

[kayt-arminta.livejournal.com]

there ARE expensive, extreemly painful proceedures he could endure.... though the final "product" isn't always the one you want.... dosn't always look right, or dosn't have ENOUGH forskin.... but it is something that can be done....

woulda been so much easier if they left the choice up to him, and not made it for him (them=parents)

you want to circumcise my child? i dare you to try. i can't understand how parents would willingly do this to their child. don't they realise the baby isn't under anesthetic because as a baby, you can't be put under, there is nothing to dull the pain, because no one believes a baby can remember the pain, so why bother, there is no REASON FOR IT.... parents need to ask their doctors, adn think about their child as a person, and not an object.

though, on another note, my fiancee was NOT circumcised... and the only thing he wishes was that someone had told him to to CLEAN himself. it's such a tabboo subject. all of it. no one talks about it any of it

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

I'm going to post exactly what I said to Connie regarding how I talk to my husband about it.
gingembre79: He still believes the "healthier" thing
Ulyyf: *sighs*
gingembre79: But, we were watching some porn a while back that had 4 uncut and 1 cut guy, and he was a bit "ewww" and we talked about how it's only cause it's what he's used to blahblah.
gingembre79: Please. It's not like he ever reseacrhed it. It's just what he knows. Plus there's the lockerroom thing, but y'know, if the man is willing to name a boy Seraph and tell me that well, EVERYONE gets it about the name, he can damn well deal with the "differentness" of being uncut, for whatever it's worth at that point. Or we could move to Europe :-)
gingembre79: In any case, many times in a marriage there are certain issues that you *know* if you just let it ride, the other person will drift over to your side eventually. In the days before the kid, and the first month or so, we got a lot of "don't hold too much", don't cosleep stuff. And I didn't let it go completely, but I knew that the telling would be in the pudding, so I didn't push too hard either. And whaddya know, though he doesn't cosleep with us(she kicks him, he says), he's a huge supporter of it and will talk it up to others.

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

Missed the first, most important, part:
gingembre79: Also that they give no anesthesia for newborns, so I told him it would HAVE to wait until kiddo was older and they would use some because I am unwilling to risk my breastfeeding relationship
gingembre79: Then, I figure, it'll pass, and he'll get used to it.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Never thought about it damaging the breastfeeding relationship, but yeah, I could see that.

It really was decided years before we had kids that we weren't going to snip, so I never heard that, not having had a need to do the research.

Breastfeeding is hard enough, you don't need anything standing in the way.

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

Some people never have a problem with it, but some do. Why risk it? I figure anything that causes my kid pain, ESPECIALLY when they are scared and unable to process what's going on well, is a BAD thing. There are definitely times where women post asking why there newborn isn't nursing well after the cut, and wondering why, and what can they do. Truly, if I were that baby, I would be angry and withdrawn too, so what do you tell them?

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

That's the thing, you can't reverse it! Let the kid have the choice when they're old enough to make an informed choice. My daughter had this huge birthmark. Doctor said it would shrink on its own, leave it alone UNLESS, once school started, it caused problems. And he meant even just a bit of a buzz...never did, and she remained surgery free (and yes, it did shrink like he said). He wanted us to wait for her to be a part of the decision making process, since it was a cosmetic thing.

My husband, despite being cut, didn't want it done to the boys. He feels his has been a negative experience.

By the way, did you know insurance companies don't always pay for them anymore? So really, if you aren't planning on having kids pretty soon, he may change his mind as he starts to see how it is becoming less popular, and more information comes out. Plus a lot of people don't REALLY look into this until it's close to a reality. Once you have a round belly and it's REAL to him (sees a sonogram, feels a kick) it's really hard to understand feeling strong love and protective feelings towards a little stranger. Or even a potential one. So yeah it's something that needs to be discussed since it is something major, but it's also suprising how pregnancy/committing to getting pregnant/etc. can change a person's mind about things.

[moggymania.livejournal.com]

"My daughter had this huge birthmark. Doctor said it would shrink on its own, leave it alone UNLESS, once school started, it caused problems. And he meant even just a bit of a buzz...never did, and she remained surgery free (and yes, it did shrink like he said). He wanted us to wait for her to be a part of the decision making process, since it was a cosmetic thing."

I completely agree, even if it hadn't shrunk. My father was born with a dark red birthmark that covers part of his forehead down to his eyelid. (Pic here if you want to see it. (http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy/photos/me/Dad_and_I_April_004.jpg) :) It's never been a problem for him. Once in a while a little kid asks him where it came from, he still reponds with what his parents taught him ("I was born that way") but that's about it. He wasn't teased or harassed at school or anything... He told me that when the laser surgery to remove it became available, he very briefly thought about it, but then realized it'd be an awful lot of hassle and pain over something that gives him no trouble!

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

The concern about the growth/shrinking was it was behind her ear, and apparently thats not uncommon, and it could cause hearing problems, it pushes the ear forward.

Sometimes kids will ask, but mostly they're ok. One kid on the block called it 'disgusting' when braiding her hair. (You can't see it normally.) But yeah, kids are not bad, for the most part.

The thing is, one of the pioneers of laser surgery for it evaluated my daughter as well as her pediatrician and said 'don't bother'. That made me happy, knowing I had medical professionals around me who cared about patients, not the bottom line.

My daughter's mark was similar in color to your dad's, but faded as well as shrunk. It's more mottled, now.

But if she ever wants it removed, I'll support her. It's up to her, now, she's 9 and old enough to express how she feels about it.

[conuly]

Good on you.

Did the hospital also push formula at you? They do that, I'm told. My foster sister... she couldn't stay in the hospital with Seth when he was born, she had to go back to the group home, so he was bottle fed. She pumped for him, and they gave him formula anyway. She later found out that they're not supposed to give formula without consent, but they did.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Can't say the push formula thing, because my son had no choice at that one, he was first fed intravenously, and then thru a tube down his throat. Formula, or breastmilk if I could manage to get any. They weren't very supportive though, nor was the Early Intervention Program. And I'm sorry, if people want others to breastfeed, lactation consultants need to stop charging over $100 an hour. That's just outrageous.

I formula AND breastfed all 3 for varying lengths of time. Sometimes breastfeeding worked, sometimes it didn't. I know breast is best but I'm not going to judge someone for giving formula. It's a personal decision.

But giving formula when you have free breastmilk, good stuff, is stupid. Did you know that they have milk banks and breastmilk is very expensive? Over $2 an ounce, last I heard. So they denied the baby that? Liquid gold? But not suprising. The politics around the whole birth process are pretty intense. Hard to not get wrapped up in the whole thing. Now that my kids are older I am trying to pull away from all that, because it can be all consuming.

[conuly]

Did you know that they have milk banks and breastmilk is very expensive?

Brazil has more milk banks than the US.

I know breast is best but I'm not going to judge someone for giving formula. It's a personal decision.



Lots of things are personal decisions. If we can't judge people for making personal decisions, what *can* we judge them for?

I mean, this limits everything. Can't judge people for spanking their kids, or for circumcizing, or for not using a seat belt, or for not using a car seat, or for kicking their kid out of the house for being gay, or for invading Iraq....

All the fun has left my life now. This is your fault. You mean.

[conuly]

*curses*

I had snark tags right before and after the last three lines. Sorry about this!

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Like I said before, formula isn't a liquid twinkie. Breastfeeding can be hard, can be expensive (believe it or not) can be painful, can be shameful (but shouldn't be) can be all sorts of things. So why would I get on someone's case if they didn't breastfeed? I did for two and then was made to feel like a failure of a mother because my youngest couldn't. Some people had the nerve to tell me I didn't try hard enough. That I was poisoning my son.

My son was thisclose to "failure to thrive" he was STARVING when he got out of NICU because he couldn't breastfeed. But I still got self proclaimed boob nazis trying to make me feel like shit. And formula is improving more and more, no, it isn't breastmilk, but it's a damn close second, and considering you are a parent for the rest of your life (As far as I am concerned, my mom and dad are still parenting me in a way), the way you feed your child the first year or so is a small part of the equation.

I defy anyone to tell me which of my children had the most breastmilk. You can't by school records, you can't by medical records (except of course where it was written down). I am more than a milk machine, and there is a lot more to this parenting thing than the ability to have a nursing relationship.

I will encourage and help and support any parent that tries to breastfeed, but if it doesn't work out, that doesn't make them a bad mother. I will say I am disappointed if someone doesn't even TRY, but it's not a bottle of gin. It's a bottle of carefully formulated breastmilk substitute.

The ones who should have their feet held to the fire is the medical establishment whose policies make nursing difficult.

http://www.hmbana.org/locations.htm 6, I believe. Backwards. Wouldnt it have been nice to give my son donated milk in NICU? :( Impossible though, with so few banks, the milk goes to the sickest babies.

[conuly]

There's a difference, a big difference, between wanting to breastfeed and having serious problems doing so (and I acknowledge that these happen, though I know that many people are misinformed and think they're having problems when they aren't. This doesn't sound like you, however) and just deciding not to for "well, no real reason".

On the other hand, when I try to promote breastfeeding, I very carefully tend to do it in a joking way, emphasizing how much better it smells and how unbelievably hard it is to get up and make a bottle of formula when you're asleep. I try not to sound like the Jack Chick of the universe.

Furthermore, I fully believe that we need more milk banks before I can really say "gah, stop with the formula!!!" I will only say "stop with the nestle" because of their unethical and illegal marketing practices, nothing more.

[conuly]

Oh, and I'm going to bed.

[conuly]

The ones who should have their feet held to the fire is the medical establishment whose policies make nursing difficult.

Oh, and definitely. And now, I sleep. Talk to me in the morning when I'm awake and am unlikely to say something that comes out wrong.