On infant circumcision.

[conuly]

Here's the thing. Parents do not own their children. Parents do not own their children's bodies.

Parents can't refuse lifesaving medical intervention for their children, even if their own religions forbid it, and they can't, ethically (screw the law, the law sucks) cause unnecessary damage to their children.

Circumcisions are unnecessary for the vast majority of boys. A small minority have diseases that do require the removal of an unhealthy foreskin.

An boy who will not be circumcised is not at risk of having part or all of the penis lopped off. This has happened, and not so long ago. A boy who will not be circumcised is at less of a risk of having infections during infancy, because the foreskin protects the penis from all the nasties in the diaper. A boy who is uncircumcised can grow up and change this. One who is circumcised can't. This is irreversible.

There is some evidence that removing the foreskin, even when it's done correctly, permanently impairs the ability to enjoy sex. Oh, not that guys still don't, but that it'd be easier if they were, y'know, intact. Like God made them. There is significant evidence that this sort of pain in infancy (and most circumcisions are still done without anesthesia) permanently rewires the pain receptors.

There are, of course, a number of good, perfectly valid reasons to circumcise.

1. Religion.

I'm not tackling this.

2. "He won't feel weird taking showers with other boys"

Does anybody still take showers like that anymore? No offense, but that seems like a way to encourage homosexuality, and I'm amazed the fundies still allow this.

At any rate, some 35% of infant males aren't circumcised. That's nearing half. These kids won't feel that weird.

3. "He should look like his daddy"

Is he a clone? No? Then he's not going to look like his daddy anyway. He'll live. And while I'm thrilled if you're actually comfortable with your own nudity, a lot of families who use this argument aren't. I don't know why they think their son will care.

4. "There are health benefits"

Actually, there really aren't, except that it helps you avoid cancer of the foreskin. And lopping off my breasts would help me avoid breast cancer, and performing routine appendectomies at birth would help people avoid appendecitis.

5. "It looks better"

Only if you're used to it. And dude? You're not fucking your son. If you are, you need to get serious help.

Well. Guess I didn't think these arguments were so valid after all.

Let's say I did. Let's say I really thought that circumcised guys look better, inherantly, and should all fit some obscure standard of conformity.

I still would be against routine infant circumcision.

In China, for many years they thought that small feet looked better, and bound girls feet, without their consent. This permanently damaged them. This is unacceptable.

If we thought that brands looked pretty, we still wouldn't find it acceptable to brand infants just because "it looks good" and "they won't remember it". We reject the concept of FGM, even though all these arguments have been used to justify it. Why is our custom different?

To be fair, I completely support the right of consenting adults to do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies. If you really want to cut off your labia, that's your own business. And if you really wish you'd been circumcised, and hate that foreskin, go ahead, get it chopped off. I support you.

But don't fuck with babies' private parts. You don't own them.

Comments

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

My perinatologist's nurse said, "by the way, Dr. X refuses to do circumcisions. You'll have to find another doctor to do it, if you want it."

However, the hospital really pushed it. Everywhere you went, they asked if you were doing it. My youngest was in NICU for 2 weeks, and once he was a bit stronger, they kept calling me telling me 'you forgot to sign the release for his circumcision'. I didn't forget a THING.

Finally I got a nurse who CRIED when I told her we weren't doing it. She said as a NICU nurse it really broke her heart -- starting with babies very small, very sick, then as soon as they are healthy enough to go home, they hold them down and cut off their foreskins. It's bad enough with normal kids, but imagine your kid fought for his life, was in agony for so long, and was alone in NICU for so long, and when that hell is almost over, you do more damage? Crazy.

With my second, too, the midwife asked, 'have you thought about circumcision' (we knew he was a boy) and when we told her that we did, and we weren't doing it, she said, 'oh, good, you won't need this, then' and put down the pile of anti-circ literature she had.

It's cosmetic surgery for babies, and that's nuts.

[neurotica0.livejournal.com]

What a wonderful story! Thank you for sharing.

I'm against circumcision for many, many reasons. Ridiculously enough, my boyfriend is all for it (this is assuming we eventually have children). I'm not exactly sure how to put my foot down on that one, except for stating the fact that if they want it done as adults, they can make that choice, but if I take something away from them, they can't get it back.

It's not that I value my belief over his. It's just that following his wish would be irreversible.

Actually, I can't fathom the fact that he would want to mutilate someone the way he has been mutilated. But, I guess that is all he knows and it just feels "natural" and "right" to him. He's probably not aware at all of what he's missing. Sad really.

[conuly]

Good on you.

Did the hospital also push formula at you? They do that, I'm told. My foster sister... she couldn't stay in the hospital with Seth when he was born, she had to go back to the group home, so he was bottle fed. She pumped for him, and they gave him formula anyway. She later found out that they're not supposed to give formula without consent, but they did.

[conuly]

Actually, I can't fathom the fact that he would want to mutilate someone the way he has been mutilated. But, I guess that is all he knows and it just feels "natural" and "right" to him. He's probably not aware at all of what he's missing. Sad really.

Saying now that circumcision is wrong would be admitting that he is, as you said, mutiliated and damaged. Who wants to admit that?

sigh

[scottrossi.livejournal.com]

i regret the fact that i am circumcised. this might be going in a place you don't want it to, but as a homosexual, i find that uncircumcised penises, when cleaned (lol) are better looking to me, and seem to be more enjoyable for the other person then not.

and forumla is terrible. alot of my friends breast feed because their babies get sick less, are better behaved and probably will have a better likelihood of growing old without cancer than we did growing up as our parents were told by the hospitals that formula is much healthier than breast milk, etc etc etc. grrr. refined sugars and chemicals are pretty evil for the most part.

[neurotica0.livejournal.com]

Right. I've probably made him feel pretty bad about himself all these times I've gone off on circumcision. (And obviously, he can't help that he was circumcised.)

I think I need to make the distinction to him that I think he is fine, because what's done is done. I would have loved him no differently if he hadn't been circumcised. It's not like I see him as, "Eww, bad-deformed-mutilated-circumcised penis." It's just that I want to stop the cycle somewhere. Obviously, I don't expect him to magically uncircumcise himself, or hold anything against him for being uncircumcised.

Wow. We might have just solved something here. It wouldn't surprise me that if he took my belief to mean that I somehow felt something against him.

[neurotica0.livejournal.com]

Mmm, bad sentence structuring and miswording!
I meant:
Obviously, I don't expect him to magically uncircumcise himself, and I don't hold anything against him from being circumcised.

Re: sigh

[neurotica0.livejournal.com]

I've met as many men who regret it as I've met who are happy it was done, which just goes to show that it should be left up to the individual boy. The parent cannot know what they are going to want when they grow up.

[ser-kai.livejournal.com]

It might make you feel better to know we're like-minded on this, therefore all my boys are uncut.
One has a tight foreskin so he may need circumcision when he's older but generally we've had no probs.

[conuly]

It might not even have been concious, him thinking "god, she hates me for my dick", but... yeah. That's also, I think, behind a lot of the arguments people make saying "I had formula, and I'm fine" (of course, they're comparing themselves to other people who had formula, which is logically invalid). They aren't reading the statement "breastmilk is better" as "gee, my mom was probably misinformed, but she did what she thought was best anyway", they're reading it as "your parents did the wrong thing by you, and you suffered", which is a very insulting statement.

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

I'm going to post exactly what I said to Connie regarding how I talk to my husband about it.
gingembre79: He still believes the "healthier" thing
Ulyyf: *sighs*
gingembre79: But, we were watching some porn a while back that had 4 uncut and 1 cut guy, and he was a bit "ewww" and we talked about how it's only cause it's what he's used to blahblah.
gingembre79: Please. It's not like he ever reseacrhed it. It's just what he knows. Plus there's the lockerroom thing, but y'know, if the man is willing to name a boy Seraph and tell me that well, EVERYONE gets it about the name, he can damn well deal with the "differentness" of being uncut, for whatever it's worth at that point. Or we could move to Europe :-)
gingembre79: In any case, many times in a marriage there are certain issues that you *know* if you just let it ride, the other person will drift over to your side eventually. In the days before the kid, and the first month or so, we got a lot of "don't hold too much", don't cosleep stuff. And I didn't let it go completely, but I knew that the telling would be in the pudding, so I didn't push too hard either. And whaddya know, though he doesn't cosleep with us(she kicks him, he says), he's a huge supporter of it and will talk it up to others.

[gingembre.livejournal.com]

Missed the first, most important, part:
gingembre79: Also that they give no anesthesia for newborns, so I told him it would HAVE to wait until kiddo was older and they would use some because I am unwilling to risk my breastfeeding relationship
gingembre79: Then, I figure, it'll pass, and he'll get used to it.

Re: sigh

[scottrossi.livejournal.com]

i think alot of parents are how duped into thinking they have no choice in the matter, and the ones that try to make a choice are at first discouraged and possibly bullied politely into making the choice to do it. a few of my friends were not given a choice (or so they claim) for their kids, they were just asked when they wanted to schedule the appointment to "cut" the child. i think in all the other stuff we have to "worry" about, this is one thing that is oftimes overlooked.

honestly

[scottrossi.livejournal.com]

honestly, i think your children may silently thank you for not doing this to them. i don't "blame" my parents or anything as they were raised in this one horse town where going against the established tradition was verboten, but as i posted, from my experiences, it is better for the male, or at least "things" seem "better" when it is uncut. out of decency i won't elaborate anymore! ;)

[spitefairy.livejournal.com]

Well actually, in most states parents Do own them. That's why someone under 18 has to have parental permission to get piercings/tattoos and such. It's also why a parent can make medical decisions with or without the child's consent. It's also why a parent is the only person allowed to give alcohol to a minor (religious functions not withstanding). Not to mention the states with parental concent requirements for abortion.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but in the US a parent pretty much own's their child, which is why circumcision is no exception.

I don't think you can compare FGM to Circumcision because with FGM most of the time sex and even normal bathroom functions are impossible or can cause severe, permanent damage. Or in cases where the clitoris is removed the girl will most likely never have an orgasm. I do agree that circumcision is rather barbaric and should be decided by the individual, but I do not think it is the same thing as FGM because the penis is fully functioning afterwards. Of course there are cases of botched circumcisions, but I'm talking about the 99.9% that go without a hitch, whereas it's almost the opposite with the FGM.

To clarify, I think a circumcised penis "looks better", but that's probably because it's the only kind I've had experience with and what I've grown up seeing (on tv, in health classes and stuff, obviously I didn't just wander around looking at dicks). However I do think it is a cruel thing to do and think that it should be left up to the individual, like you said, if they want to get it removed on their own later in life that's perfectly fine with me.

[conuly]

1. Ethically, you don't own your children. Legally, it's inching towards best-interests-of-the-child. Slowly, yes, but it's getting there.

2. It's exactly the same as FGM, the only difference is in degree. And the fact that it's usually done in much more sanitary conditions.

[spitefairy.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, ethically I agree.

I don't think it's the same at all because the male genitalia is fully functioning after removal, whereas the female genitalia really isn't. Also, the foreskin isn't necessary for sexual pleasure, sexual acts, reproductive acts, or waste removal; in the case of FGM what is removed Is necessary for all/most of those.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

That's the thing, you can't reverse it! Let the kid have the choice when they're old enough to make an informed choice. My daughter had this huge birthmark. Doctor said it would shrink on its own, leave it alone UNLESS, once school started, it caused problems. And he meant even just a bit of a buzz...never did, and she remained surgery free (and yes, it did shrink like he said). He wanted us to wait for her to be a part of the decision making process, since it was a cosmetic thing.

My husband, despite being cut, didn't want it done to the boys. He feels his has been a negative experience.

By the way, did you know insurance companies don't always pay for them anymore? So really, if you aren't planning on having kids pretty soon, he may change his mind as he starts to see how it is becoming less popular, and more information comes out. Plus a lot of people don't REALLY look into this until it's close to a reality. Once you have a round belly and it's REAL to him (sees a sonogram, feels a kick) it's really hard to understand feeling strong love and protective feelings towards a little stranger. Or even a potential one. So yeah it's something that needs to be discussed since it is something major, but it's also suprising how pregnancy/committing to getting pregnant/etc. can change a person's mind about things.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Can't say the push formula thing, because my son had no choice at that one, he was first fed intravenously, and then thru a tube down his throat. Formula, or breastmilk if I could manage to get any. They weren't very supportive though, nor was the Early Intervention Program. And I'm sorry, if people want others to breastfeed, lactation consultants need to stop charging over $100 an hour. That's just outrageous.

I formula AND breastfed all 3 for varying lengths of time. Sometimes breastfeeding worked, sometimes it didn't. I know breast is best but I'm not going to judge someone for giving formula. It's a personal decision.

But giving formula when you have free breastmilk, good stuff, is stupid. Did you know that they have milk banks and breastmilk is very expensive? Over $2 an ounce, last I heard. So they denied the baby that? Liquid gold? But not suprising. The politics around the whole birth process are pretty intense. Hard to not get wrapped up in the whole thing. Now that my kids are older I am trying to pull away from all that, because it can be all consuming.

[conuly]

Actually, what is covered under FGM varies greatly from region to region. In many areas, it's not quite that... extreme.

Furthermore, as I said, the difference is in degree, not in kind.

Re: sigh

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I never heard anything about breastfed babies being better behaved. Better have a talk with my kids, they're all misbehave in their own special ways. (Each breast and/or formula fed to varying degrees.)

Breast is best but formula isn't like feeding your kid liquid twinkies.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Oh, he'll never see this anyways, and just don't look at him funny if you ever meet him. ;)

My husband considers himself mutilated and damaged, and is very unhappy with his circumcision. Things just arent quite 100% right as far as he is concerned. And there isn't a damn thing he can do about it.

But if he was uncut, and he was unhappy, at least he could have 'fixed' it. And fixed it at an age when he could have been given good anethesia, and given good painkillers afterwards, unlike infants.

[conuly]

Did you know that they have milk banks and breastmilk is very expensive?

Brazil has more milk banks than the US.

I know breast is best but I'm not going to judge someone for giving formula. It's a personal decision.



Lots of things are personal decisions. If we can't judge people for making personal decisions, what *can* we judge them for?

I mean, this limits everything. Can't judge people for spanking their kids, or for circumcizing, or for not using a seat belt, or for not using a car seat, or for kicking their kid out of the house for being gay, or for invading Iraq....

All the fun has left my life now. This is your fault. You mean.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Never thought about it damaging the breastfeeding relationship, but yeah, I could see that.

It really was decided years before we had kids that we weren't going to snip, so I never heard that, not having had a need to do the research.

Breastfeeding is hard enough, you don't need anything standing in the way.

[conuly]

*curses*

I had snark tags right before and after the last three lines. Sorry about this!