Gah.

[conuly]

Defense expert witnesses testified Wednesday that Schragger's pedophilia was exacerbated by Asperger's Syndrome, a rare neurological condition similar to autism and characterized by poor social and communication skills.

And...? Let me tell you something about the world. Usually, people with poor social and communication skills aren't trusted with kids, not for overnight sleepovers, regardless of whatever desires they may harbor. So already I find this one hard to believe. On top of this, it doesn't matter how poor your social and communication skills are, this does not hinder your ability to know and understand the law.

And another article. You can't post unscreened unless you're a member.

Comments

[ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that in no way is there a connection between autism and pedophilia. Not as far as I know, anyway.

Sometimes I think reporters just feel obligated to throw every known psychiatric diagnosis that a person has into a new story. Just so they can feel complete or something, I don't know.

[leora.livejournal.com]

There's no connection. But some people have pedophilic desires, and it's a statistical likelihood that eventually one of those people will have Asperger's or be autistic. And I would imagine it would be much harder for such a person to understand why those impulses need to be controlled.

However, they do still need to take responsibility. And most of the auties and aspies I know would likely prefer to be convicted of their crimes than be viewed as unable to make decisions and take responsibility for their actions. It's a tough line though.

[conuly]

But some people have pedophilic desires, and it's a statistical likelihood that eventually one of those people will have Asperger's or be autistic.

Certainly. But it's completely irrelevant. Impaired communication skills aren't the same as an impaired ability to understand right from wrong, or an impaired ability to understand "this is against the law, and can send me to prison for a very long time". And most people aren't as thinking as they ought to be. They read this, and then think "aspergers = pedophile" instead of "this guy = pedophile".

[leora.livejournal.com]

But autism and asperger's is so much more than just impaired communication skills. I actually think it often would be highly relevant.

Two of the affects that seem fairly common are an inability to view a situation from someone else's perspective. They tend not to have any natural feelings of empathy and must be taught/trained to have these skills. They are fully capable of acquiring them in most cases, but there's no natural feeling of, just because punching me hurts me, I shouldn't punch you.

There is also often a compartmentalization of the brain, where different pieces of knowledge are known, but not always pulled up at the right time.

One autistic person, who is far on the spectrum, was trying to explain this. While he knows full well that walking outside and straight into the middle of the street without checking for cars is a bad idea, he also knows that if he were doing something, like following a butterfly, he wouldn't be able to remember that it's a bad idea in time to prevent a possible accident. This particular person needs constant supervision, even though he is fully capable of writing coherently and intelligently.

I think these two factors can combine to make someone with Asperger's far more likely to act on a pedophilic desire without realizing at the time that it is wrong. It doesn't excuse it. But it could very well play a part in it.

[conuly]

They tend not to have any natural feelings of empathy and must be taught/trained to have these skills.

Actually, that's not true. Autists often do care about other people's feelings, even very deeply - however, it can be difficult for other people to tell this because of the communication problems - autists don't know when others are upset, and others don't know when autists are acting caring and nice. Miscommunication != lack of empathy. I believe Moggy's said some inciscive things on the subject, and also that I just misspelled that word.

[leora.livejournal.com]

What you said does not actually negate what I said. Yes, many auties/aspies care about other people. Probably roughly the same percentage as with the general population. But they don't feel what others feel. At least, I have been told so from multiple sources and not had anyone contradict this so far. As it's a spectrum, perhaps some do, but I suspect most don't.

So, he could very well be hurting people without knowing it. Whereas, if I'm around someone in pain, usually it is physically painful for me. I can't miss it or tune it out (although I can block myself from caring). It's the empathy, the direct feeling of what others feel, that I am referring to. Not caring about the information.

So, with most people, they punch someone, the person buckles in pain, the connection is clear and the person's pain is clear to them. They will often immediately feel bad for hurting someone else. Whereas for many auties/aspies, they punch someone, the person buckles in pain, and they may be confused. They may have learned that this is a sign that the person is in pain, and if they are a good person, they will then feel bad about causing pain. But it's not as direct a link. So, there are more places where it can break down. The more points of vulnerability, the more likely the chain is to break and the person to not realize the damage that is being done.

[conuly]

But they don't feel what others feel.

Nobody can feel what others feel. They think they do, and sometimes they are correct, but more often (in my experience) they are very much mistaken.

Whereas for many auties/aspies, they punch someone, the person buckles in pain, and they may be confused.

I don't believe I know anybody for whom this is true.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I doubt it is true of any adults short of those with extreme disabilities, such as serious mental retardation. However, I do think it's true of many children. And there is a difference between a child who needs to be told - no, don't hit others it hurts them and the child who instinctively knows that. Both will grow up to not hit others in most cases, but the one who instinctively knows it, will have an ability to generalize moreso than the other child.

Sure, you can overcome a lack of empathy, but it's a disadvantage. I know my view on this is probably a bit extreme, but I've lived with a high degree of empathy throughout my life, and I just can't really fathom how others function with less.

Of course I can tell how others feel in many situations. I have twice been aware of strong feelings a person has had toward me before they had admitted it to themselves. My lothario was really confused and surprised that I had known his feelings for me before he did, but to me they were blatantly obvious. Sure, you can't be 100% sure. And you can't ever truly know what another person feels. But you can process a 100 tiny pieces of information subconsciously and then output that as feeling what the other person feels.

And yes, this doesn't work as well for some people, and certainly people regularly misread me because I don't express my emotions the way they expect to. But if you don't regularly do this, it must be much easier to not notice that someone is in distress. And then you can, with no intent to harm, continue to distress them. Whereas, if you cannot avoid being acutely aware of the suffering of the person near you, and your own body makes you suffer, it's a lot harder to do it.

Sure, if you know you don't have these tools you can and should design other tools. And if you've managed to be a self-functioning adult and you know you have urges that are dangerous, you certainly should design tools to make sure you never act on them. But it's got to be a whole lot harder than it is for most people.

[conuly]

Of course I can tell how others feel in many situations.

Being able to tell what others feel is not the same as feeling what they feel. Furthermore, many autistics say that they are able to tell what other autists feel more easily than what NTs feel - and that NTs often misread them. This, again, would seem not to be a "lack of empathy" but a "lack of adaquate communication on both sides".

[leora.livejournal.com]

True, and a good point. But I process it as an emotional feeling within myself, and that is important. Well, I don't always.

I do think that there is a huge communication barrier in place. And it's possible that autistics can have true empathy toward each other. I don't know. I suspect that they simply better know what the other person is feeling, but it's a good question.

But so then I would say that the communication barrier simply adds another level of difficulty, not that it makes it any less of an issue that autistics tend not to experience other people's feelings as feelings that they can feel.

There are also likely advantages to that, of course. Even in some cases to being better able to decrease other people's level of distress, because it's not triggering problems within yourself that you then need to handle. But it's going to be very different.

[conuly]

I'd love to reply, but for some reason this didn't make much sense. The *words* make sense, the *sentences* make sense, but they're not making sense all together. And I *know* this is me, not that you put them together wrong. Any chance you can simplify/sum up/rephrase? On the other post, though, the one up there. *points*

[conuly]

Huh. At the risk of sounding insulting, I forgot the whole "blind thing" and don't know how well you can navigate my journal normally (I'd assume it's well, you've commented in here, but I don't know, maybe you get it all from your friends list.)

So, here. Linky! http://www.livejournal.com/users/conuly/556060.html

[leora.livejournal.com]

Or more precisely, I am saying that most auties/aspies lack empathy. Just that empathy is not at all the same thing as caring. You can care without empathy and have empathy without caring. But empathy is a tool that makes it easier to care in a helpful way.

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

The point is, they're tarring us all with the same brush...and AS isn't even all that rare.
I like kids, but not like that--and I don't want my profs to be scared to ask me to babysit because of crap like this.

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

Though at least they had the decency to say "exaccerbated" and not "caused". That's a little better.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

"Let me tell you something about the world. Usually, people with poor social and communication skills aren't trusted with kids, not for overnight sleepovers, regardless of whatever desires they may harbor. So already I find this one hard to believe."

Ummm... let me tell you something about the SCA, of which I've been a member since 1977: it's Aspie Central, and there are lots of people with poor social and communication skills but passionate, perseverative interest in the Middle Ages. We tend to be a pretty trusting lot toward one another - many of us are geeky and odd, but that's okay - and we're very much into the whole camping/overnight event thing. So I can totally see this guy being trusted. *shrugs* People trust me to take their kids to overnight SCA events despite my social and communicational difficulties.

No, the guy's being Aspie doesn't excuse his behavior in the least, and it's just a cheap trick on the part of his lawyer to try to use it that way. Aspies aren't any more likely to engage in pedophilia than anyone else is, and neither are SCA members.

Point about that: you watch, there's liable to be a lot more "outcry" against the SCA than against Aspies. The Christian Reich doesn't like the SCA at all, for numerous reasons - we're even worse than those devil-worshippin' D&D players, y'know? - and will probably pounce on this story as 'evidence' that we're all abnormal as well as immoral, and should therefore be burned at the stake avoided by all Right-thinking People.

[conuly]

True enough.

[rantinan.livejournal.com]

Being someone who is aspergers and the victom of pedophilia this makes my blood boil worse than anything.
I refuse to click on the article. I refuse to even look. I refuse to do this cause i refuse to put myself in the way of knowing even the general area this human protoplasam is in, because murdering him will have consequences i dont like, and i dont want to be tempted.

See us AS peole CAN be responsibble. We just make certain that we responsably avoid temptaion.

[ex-chaos-by-699.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that in no way is there a connection between autism and pedophilia. Not as far as I know, anyway.

Sometimes I think reporters just feel obligated to throw every known psychiatric diagnosis that a person has into a new story. Just so they can feel complete or something, I don't know.

[leora.livejournal.com]

There's no connection. But some people have pedophilic desires, and it's a statistical likelihood that eventually one of those people will have Asperger's or be autistic. And I would imagine it would be much harder for such a person to understand why those impulses need to be controlled.

However, they do still need to take responsibility. And most of the auties and aspies I know would likely prefer to be convicted of their crimes than be viewed as unable to make decisions and take responsibility for their actions. It's a tough line though.

[conuly]

But some people have pedophilic desires, and it's a statistical likelihood that eventually one of those people will have Asperger's or be autistic.

Certainly. But it's completely irrelevant. Impaired communication skills aren't the same as an impaired ability to understand right from wrong, or an impaired ability to understand "this is against the law, and can send me to prison for a very long time". And most people aren't as thinking as they ought to be. They read this, and then think "aspergers = pedophile" instead of "this guy = pedophile".

[leora.livejournal.com]

But autism and asperger's is so much more than just impaired communication skills. I actually think it often would be highly relevant.

Two of the affects that seem fairly common are an inability to view a situation from someone else's perspective. They tend not to have any natural feelings of empathy and must be taught/trained to have these skills. They are fully capable of acquiring them in most cases, but there's no natural feeling of, just because punching me hurts me, I shouldn't punch you.

There is also often a compartmentalization of the brain, where different pieces of knowledge are known, but not always pulled up at the right time.

One autistic person, who is far on the spectrum, was trying to explain this. While he knows full well that walking outside and straight into the middle of the street without checking for cars is a bad idea, he also knows that if he were doing something, like following a butterfly, he wouldn't be able to remember that it's a bad idea in time to prevent a possible accident. This particular person needs constant supervision, even though he is fully capable of writing coherently and intelligently.

I think these two factors can combine to make someone with Asperger's far more likely to act on a pedophilic desire without realizing at the time that it is wrong. It doesn't excuse it. But it could very well play a part in it.

[conuly]

They tend not to have any natural feelings of empathy and must be taught/trained to have these skills.

Actually, that's not true. Autists often do care about other people's feelings, even very deeply - however, it can be difficult for other people to tell this because of the communication problems - autists don't know when others are upset, and others don't know when autists are acting caring and nice. Miscommunication != lack of empathy. I believe Moggy's said some inciscive things on the subject, and also that I just misspelled that word.

[leora.livejournal.com]

What you said does not actually negate what I said. Yes, many auties/aspies care about other people. Probably roughly the same percentage as with the general population. But they don't feel what others feel. At least, I have been told so from multiple sources and not had anyone contradict this so far. As it's a spectrum, perhaps some do, but I suspect most don't.

So, he could very well be hurting people without knowing it. Whereas, if I'm around someone in pain, usually it is physically painful for me. I can't miss it or tune it out (although I can block myself from caring). It's the empathy, the direct feeling of what others feel, that I am referring to. Not caring about the information.

So, with most people, they punch someone, the person buckles in pain, the connection is clear and the person's pain is clear to them. They will often immediately feel bad for hurting someone else. Whereas for many auties/aspies, they punch someone, the person buckles in pain, and they may be confused. They may have learned that this is a sign that the person is in pain, and if they are a good person, they will then feel bad about causing pain. But it's not as direct a link. So, there are more places where it can break down. The more points of vulnerability, the more likely the chain is to break and the person to not realize the damage that is being done.

[conuly]

But they don't feel what others feel.

Nobody can feel what others feel. They think they do, and sometimes they are correct, but more often (in my experience) they are very much mistaken.

Whereas for many auties/aspies, they punch someone, the person buckles in pain, and they may be confused.

I don't believe I know anybody for whom this is true.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I doubt it is true of any adults short of those with extreme disabilities, such as serious mental retardation. However, I do think it's true of many children. And there is a difference between a child who needs to be told - no, don't hit others it hurts them and the child who instinctively knows that. Both will grow up to not hit others in most cases, but the one who instinctively knows it, will have an ability to generalize moreso than the other child.

Sure, you can overcome a lack of empathy, but it's a disadvantage. I know my view on this is probably a bit extreme, but I've lived with a high degree of empathy throughout my life, and I just can't really fathom how others function with less.

Of course I can tell how others feel in many situations. I have twice been aware of strong feelings a person has had toward me before they had admitted it to themselves. My lothario was really confused and surprised that I had known his feelings for me before he did, but to me they were blatantly obvious. Sure, you can't be 100% sure. And you can't ever truly know what another person feels. But you can process a 100 tiny pieces of information subconsciously and then output that as feeling what the other person feels.

And yes, this doesn't work as well for some people, and certainly people regularly misread me because I don't express my emotions the way they expect to. But if you don't regularly do this, it must be much easier to not notice that someone is in distress. And then you can, with no intent to harm, continue to distress them. Whereas, if you cannot avoid being acutely aware of the suffering of the person near you, and your own body makes you suffer, it's a lot harder to do it.

Sure, if you know you don't have these tools you can and should design other tools. And if you've managed to be a self-functioning adult and you know you have urges that are dangerous, you certainly should design tools to make sure you never act on them. But it's got to be a whole lot harder than it is for most people.

[conuly]

Of course I can tell how others feel in many situations.

Being able to tell what others feel is not the same as feeling what they feel. Furthermore, many autistics say that they are able to tell what other autists feel more easily than what NTs feel - and that NTs often misread them. This, again, would seem not to be a "lack of empathy" but a "lack of adaquate communication on both sides".

[leora.livejournal.com]

True, and a good point. But I process it as an emotional feeling within myself, and that is important. Well, I don't always.

I do think that there is a huge communication barrier in place. And it's possible that autistics can have true empathy toward each other. I don't know. I suspect that they simply better know what the other person is feeling, but it's a good question.

But so then I would say that the communication barrier simply adds another level of difficulty, not that it makes it any less of an issue that autistics tend not to experience other people's feelings as feelings that they can feel.

There are also likely advantages to that, of course. Even in some cases to being better able to decrease other people's level of distress, because it's not triggering problems within yourself that you then need to handle. But it's going to be very different.

[conuly]

I'd love to reply, but for some reason this didn't make much sense. The *words* make sense, the *sentences* make sense, but they're not making sense all together. And I *know* this is me, not that you put them together wrong. Any chance you can simplify/sum up/rephrase? On the other post, though, the one up there. *points*

[conuly]

Huh. At the risk of sounding insulting, I forgot the whole "blind thing" and don't know how well you can navigate my journal normally (I'd assume it's well, you've commented in here, but I don't know, maybe you get it all from your friends list.)

So, here. Linky! http://www.livejournal.com/users/conuly/556060.html

[leora.livejournal.com]

Or more precisely, I am saying that most auties/aspies lack empathy. Just that empathy is not at all the same thing as caring. You can care without empathy and have empathy without caring. But empathy is a tool that makes it easier to care in a helpful way.

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

The point is, they're tarring us all with the same brush...and AS isn't even all that rare.
I like kids, but not like that--and I don't want my profs to be scared to ask me to babysit because of crap like this.

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

Though at least they had the decency to say "exaccerbated" and not "caused". That's a little better.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

"Let me tell you something about the world. Usually, people with poor social and communication skills aren't trusted with kids, not for overnight sleepovers, regardless of whatever desires they may harbor. So already I find this one hard to believe."

Ummm... let me tell you something about the SCA, of which I've been a member since 1977: it's Aspie Central, and there are lots of people with poor social and communication skills but passionate, perseverative interest in the Middle Ages. We tend to be a pretty trusting lot toward one another - many of us are geeky and odd, but that's okay - and we're very much into the whole camping/overnight event thing. So I can totally see this guy being trusted. *shrugs* People trust me to take their kids to overnight SCA events despite my social and communicational difficulties.

No, the guy's being Aspie doesn't excuse his behavior in the least, and it's just a cheap trick on the part of his lawyer to try to use it that way. Aspies aren't any more likely to engage in pedophilia than anyone else is, and neither are SCA members.

Point about that: you watch, there's liable to be a lot more "outcry" against the SCA than against Aspies. The Christian Reich doesn't like the SCA at all, for numerous reasons - we're even worse than those devil-worshippin' D&D players, y'know? - and will probably pounce on this story as 'evidence' that we're all abnormal as well as immoral, and should therefore be burned at the stake avoided by all Right-thinking People.

[conuly]

True enough.

[rantinan.livejournal.com]

Being someone who is aspergers and the victom of pedophilia this makes my blood boil worse than anything.
I refuse to click on the article. I refuse to even look. I refuse to do this cause i refuse to put myself in the way of knowing even the general area this human protoplasam is in, because murdering him will have consequences i dont like, and i dont want to be tempted.

See us AS peole CAN be responsibble. We just make certain that we responsably avoid temptaion.