Somebody in my last post commented...

[conuly]

In prayer, they aren't saying "our religion is the only acceptable one." They're saying, "This is what I believe, and I choose to excercise it publicly." Not such an unusual thing.

Would that I believed that. Let's look at why I think Bush and his ilk aren't saying the latter...

Republicans seem to be the driving force behind that "National Day of Prayer" dreck. Not a national day of "do something charitable or useful" but a national day of prayer.

The signing of the PBA was accompanied by a lot of religious talk. I don't want to think that my government is making important decisions based on religious feelings instead of science.

Bush has encouraged the Supreme Court to allow the 10 Commandments to be displayed on public buildings. This doesn't mean "churches" of course.

The Bush administration pushes abstinence everywhere. Even to the point of all those abstinence-only classes and pushing for "parental notification" if kids want to buy condoms. This doesn't exactly lower teen pregnancies. It doesn't lower abortion rates either, but this is a different issue. Most abstinence-only education promotion seems to be religiously based.

The war on Iraq has been repeatedly cast in religious terms. This is not the only case I have heard of.

I have yet to find an argument against same-sex marriage that doesn't involve religion. And here's our esteemed president, trying to amend the constitution based on a belief many people don't share.

I don't know Bush's feeling on evolution, but I've never heard a non-religious person diss it. I've heard plenty of religious people embrace it, don't get me wrong, but....

Let's not forget "March for Jesus Day". "March for Jesus Day was established as a time for us to join together as people of many faiths so that we may pay homage to our divine authority." Um, right.

And while I'm not touching the phrase on currency, I think displaying it in classrooms goes a bit far. Why not display something... well, relevant? Like the 1st Amendment? I think we could all use a little more of that in our classes.

I really have no faith in shrubboy and his ilk, not when it comes to the ability to keep their religion separate from their politics or their lawmaking, and this prayer is just the latest indication of that.

Comments

[ironychan.livejournal.com]

I don't like Bush either (but it affects me less because I'm not American). In all honesty, I only argued the point because I'm sick of the antics of my fellow atheists. All of the links you post there are examples of stuff that definitely should not be done. The inauguration prayer is a more gray area... you can interpret it either way, and I don't believe that freedom of religion means nobody should be allowed to express religious feeling publically.

[conuly]

He's having clergy lead a prayer at his inaugeration. A secular ceremony making him *shudders* president. Clergy don't belong there. He wants to pray, he can do that before or after. He wants to pray with clergy, he can do that before or after. Prayers don't belong in the government.

[ironychan.livejournal.com]

If it wasn't Bush, would you still care?

[conuly]

Yup.

I mean, I don't really care now, I'll stop talking about it in a day. But it'd still irritate me whenever I thought about it.

[zathras26.livejournal.com]

I don't view the inauguration as a gray area at all. All this inauguration stuff is being paid for (at least in part) by tax dollars, and it is a violation of the First Amendment to use tax money for a religious purpose.

[conuly]

Ooh, could you go say that in my previous post? RIght under the person I replied to when I pointed out that it's not his party, that ceremony belongs to the entire nation?

[zathras26.livejournal.com]

Done. :)

[conuly]

Danke.

[zathras26.livejournal.com]

It even goes beyond all that to the much more blunt and explicit. Let's not forget that Bush 41 openly and explicitly said, and I quote, "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

[conuly]

Gimme a link? I know people have said tons of atrocious things, I want to at least limit my post to things which can be verified.

[zathras26.livejournal.com]

It's documented here (http://www.robsherman.com/information/liberalnews/2002/0303.htm).

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

By standing up and praying in public, Bush (and every other Christian who does it) is defying the direct instruction of Jesus:

Matthew 6:5-18: "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. {6} "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

[adiva_calandia]

Hah! Yes! Thank you! The parable of the tax collector. . .

I argued with my father about that one:

[marveen.livejournal.com]

His reply? "That's not what he meant."

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... what did he think he did mean, then? Seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me...

*sighs* My Dad's pretty-much the same way.

[conuly]

Maybe he meant "You can pray in public IF AND ONLY IF you're doing it because you want to pray, not because you want people to think you're holier-than-they."

Which really knocks Shrubboy out of the picture AGAIN, doesn't it?

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/scrith/46292.html

[conuly]

Thank you.

[ironychan.livejournal.com]

I don't like Bush either (but it affects me less because I'm not American). In all honesty, I only argued the point because I'm sick of the antics of my fellow atheists. All of the links you post there are examples of stuff that definitely should not be done. The inauguration prayer is a more gray area... you can interpret it either way, and I don't believe that freedom of religion means nobody should be allowed to express religious feeling publically.

[conuly]

He's having clergy lead a prayer at his inaugeration. A secular ceremony making him *shudders* president. Clergy don't belong there. He wants to pray, he can do that before or after. He wants to pray with clergy, he can do that before or after. Prayers don't belong in the government.

[ironychan.livejournal.com]

If it wasn't Bush, would you still care?

[conuly]

Yup.

I mean, I don't really care now, I'll stop talking about it in a day. But it'd still irritate me whenever I thought about it.

[zathras26.livejournal.com]

I don't view the inauguration as a gray area at all. All this inauguration stuff is being paid for (at least in part) by tax dollars, and it is a violation of the First Amendment to use tax money for a religious purpose.

[conuly]

Ooh, could you go say that in my previous post? RIght under the person I replied to when I pointed out that it's not his party, that ceremony belongs to the entire nation?

[zathras26.livejournal.com]

Done. :)

[conuly]

Danke.

[zathras26.livejournal.com]

It even goes beyond all that to the much more blunt and explicit. Let's not forget that Bush 41 openly and explicitly said, and I quote, "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

[conuly]

Gimme a link? I know people have said tons of atrocious things, I want to at least limit my post to things which can be verified.

[zathras26.livejournal.com]

It's documented here (http://www.robsherman.com/information/liberalnews/2002/0303.htm).

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

By standing up and praying in public, Bush (and every other Christian who does it) is defying the direct instruction of Jesus:

Matthew 6:5-18: "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. {6} "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

[adiva_calandia]

Hah! Yes! Thank you! The parable of the tax collector. . .

I argued with my father about that one:

[marveen.livejournal.com]

His reply? "That's not what he meant."

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... what did he think he did mean, then? Seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me...

*sighs* My Dad's pretty-much the same way.

[conuly]

Maybe he meant "You can pray in public IF AND ONLY IF you're doing it because you want to pray, not because you want people to think you're holier-than-they."

Which really knocks Shrubboy out of the picture AGAIN, doesn't it?

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/scrith/46292.html

[conuly]

Thank you.